Episode Transcript
welcome back to sort of sophisticated, the podcast that really has no idea what it's doing, but we're gonna keep doing it anyway. Okay. I don't know why you downplay your podcast so much. I'm, it's awesome. I'm self depreciating. Yeah, you are. You know how I work, right? You just want people to like message you and call you and say, don't we love you. You're so good. Don't give away my secret. Okay. Then how about this? It's a podcast that's supposed to make us sound smarter, without making you work too hard. Yeah, I like it. Okay. That's better. Yeah. It's Do you think it's working? It is. I learn something new every week. I know, but you're, you're the, you are the experiment, but like, now you need, but I'm your target audience, the one who you wanna instill information to. Thank you, miss optimism. And that, dear listeners, is my hopelessly optimistic co-host, Amanda, trying to help me out as always. Hi, Amanda. Hello. Hello. How you doing? I'm good. Good. Um, what are we talking about today? Well, we're gonna talk about something super important and super deep, but I don't know if I'm ready for that. I'm gonna throw you for a loop for a minute because Okay. Um, I just did a thing and you're my therapist. Okay. And I'm on the therapy couch. Let's go. So we're doing this right now. Here we are. So, last week was, uh, the birthday, right? Yeah. I don't wanna say the big birthday. It was just a birthday for me. Correct. Right. Which, um, no big milestone, but Yeah. Important nonetheless, but, well, and therein lies the therapy. Yeah. Dr. Amanda, had a few big moments lately, right? And so, like, I don't like them anymore. Like, I used to look forward to him because we would do something together. 'cause she'd always would plan. 'cause I mean, she's your lover, so if she's your lover, then she likes you and she does stuff for you. Right? But then when you don't have someone to do that for you, like it's still fun. Like people, like my kids did something like, it's nice, I went out with friends too. Like it was, it was like decent, but like. It's weird. It's not the same. No. Not at all. So like, I'm not trying to avoid them or be a freak. I understand I have to, you know, live and everything, but it's a thing. Yeah. Like it is literally you want me to, can I go really dark for a second? Go right ahead. Um, no judging here. No judging ever. I'm one year closer to seeing her, so, but I don't know if that's dark. Like there's hope in that, right? There's there is. Yes. And I like that. So it is really weird. Birthdays have changed forever. Yeah, I love birthdays. I want to, but I can see why. Mm-hmm. It's real hard. Yeah. Here we are. So anyway, done and done. Don't, I mean, July. We just kind of need to fast forward July for you. July is just not, July sucks for me. Yeah. Oh, no, dude. She died. I don't know what it was like 15 days before my birthday. It was terrible. Okay. It was terrible. It's still terrible. It's ter Well, what, I'm sorry. Is there a good, is there a good time to, I don't know. Speaking of that, so you good time to die? I'm, I'm a little nervous. February 8th. That should be the day to die. What? That, this is gonna be like. A deep episode. Oh, this is deep. Deep. Yeah. And now we're like, I'm already sitting in it. No, no. It's gonna get worse. Oh no. 'cause we only talked how gonna get worse because we only talked about one person that died. We're about to talk about 2 million people that died. 2 million. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Are you ready? Can I go, can I give you official title? Okay. Let's go. Okay. Today's topic is titled The Killing Field, Cambodia's Genocide 50 years later. And before you ask me like what this has to do with why this makes us more cultured or anything, um, the word genocide is in the title Amanda Genocide. Okay. And learning about anything that has to do with why anyone would commit or participate in genocidal activities. Is genocidal a word? Did I just TM that Genocidal activities, first of all. Brings awareness and a level of uncomfortableness. So like maybe, I don't know, more people will try to stop it. And second Amanda, it helps us to remember the people who died in this horrific way to demonstrate that their lives were meaningful and worthwhile. Because that's where my brain is right now. And 50 years later, Cambodia is still dealing with this stuff. This is like big, big stuff. This isn't just. Like we're skimming over something. We're going, we are. We've covered some dark shit hard stuff. Like we've done some stuff. We've done D-Day. Right. We've done Nagasaki and Hiroshima. Right. But Cambodia in the 1970s was like, Amanda was, it was brutal. It was one of the most extreme political experiments in history and it totally ended up going like off the fucking rails. It was bad. I can't even imagine people having to live through this. No. Nope. Unbelievable. I can't fathom it at all. No. I was born. I was three years old, but I was born like it was crazy. Right? Yeah. Oh man. I know. Okay. Yeah. Well, I guess we gotta do Word of the Day. Okay. We'll do word of the Day quick. Okay. We'll get outta the way and then we'll get started. Okay. Right. Because I don't know how we're usually, we try to make Word of the Day funny, like, I don't know if we can, it's gonna stop mean, again, sitting in that heaviness, let's just power through this shit. All right, here we go. Okay, so our word of the day to day is Morden. Morant Mor. Sounds like morbid Morant. Morden, but Morden. Okay. M-O-R-D-A-N-T. Morant. Yes. Okay. Latin is yes. What more? Why do I do Latin like Italian? I dunno. More. Right. Meaning to bite, huh? And it means being sharply sarcastic or biting in tone. Like basically like my whole personality. Wow. I'm morant. You said it. Yes. I I did not. I know, I know, I know. Okay. Good job, right? Like self-reflecting there. I'm doing, I'm doing a lot of self depreciating. A lot of self, oh man. Self-reflecting. There's a lot going on here. There is. It's one of those days. I'm a lot. This episode, whatever. All right. Well as we get into it, maybe we should start with like a little history of Cambodia. Um, 'cause I know I probably don't adequately know enough about the history of Cambodia, and if I did it was in world history class and we all know how long ago that was. So, hello. You got some good comma go. I'll go. I'll rip through it. Okay, here's the deal. So Cambodia didn't just wake up one day and decide, Hey, let's try this Ultravit, like communism thing. Okay. That like wasn't their plan. The whole thing was brewing for decades before that. And actually Amanda, the Cold War, believe it or not, had a lot to do with it. Like, I didn't even know that when I was looking this up. So let me rewind and then we'll, we'll go forward. Okay. So way before, like all the colonial shit and all the Cold War stuff, Cambodia was actually the power. In Southeast Asia, like they were big. I'm talking about the Kumar Empire, which actually ruled for over 600 years, starting in the ninth century. And at its peak, it was a total beast. It had these massive cities with some pretty advanced engineering that kind of made the pyramids of Egypt look like kind of ghetto. So you've probably heard of this place called an or wat the iconic stone temple that you've seen in like every single TikTok. Yeah. Yes. Like it's in every meditation studio. So that was their claim to fame. And even today, I, I look this up, it's the largest religious structure on earth. So like baseline Cambodia was pretty fricking awesome. Like back in the day, like people just don't know because nobody talks about Cambodia because it like, I mean, definitely sounds like it. Okay. So fast forward to the 14 hundreds and the Kuer, empire Falls and Cambodia basically gets stuck in this like 400 year long tug of war between Thailand called Siam back then and Vietnam. So Thailand would swoop in, install a puppet ruler, then Vietnam would come back in, push Thailand out, do the same thing, went back and forth all the way to like. I dunno, the mid 18 hundreds. So that's going on for 400 years. Like a long time. That's a lot for a country. Yeah. Yeah. Just back and forth and forth. That's lot. Yeah. Yeah. So wait, what happened to change it? Okay, so in 1860, this dude named King Notre Dame decides enough's enough, we need help. So he calls France of all people and says, Hey, come protect us. 'cause Thailand and Vietnam are like a bunch of douches and don't know what they're doing. And so France totally signs up for it and they like say, yeah, like coming, let's go. And in 1863, they totally bailed out Cambodia, but became like the rulers of Cambodia. Yes, basically. Okay. So subsequently in exchange for protection. Cambodia had to give up control of their foreign policy, their military, all their trade, like typical stuff. Um, but they didn't really care because it was better to be part of what you would call like French Indochina back then than it was dealing with Thailand and Vietnam fighting over them all the time. Right. Oh, interesting. Okay. So they signed up, right. And it stays like that for like another a hundred years. So then we're in like the 1950s, 1953 to be exact, when King Norad Dame's great grandson, king No Roddam. Suk uses the post-World War II anti-colonial movement combined with this whole Cold War thing I was talking about to push for independence. And he launches what he calls the Royal Crusade for Independence. Not a war or anything, more like a global publicity toward with, just enough talking to get noticed. So basically he was able to convince France that it was better to leave him alone versus forced out with a war. Oh, and, and fun fact, ook. He was only 29 years old when he had this. Wow. Right. Like either wicked smart or Nepo baby. Yeah. Whatever. He was totally smart. Okay. I wish, I wish my, I wish my kid was like ruling a country at 29 years old. I, I, I don't know. But when does this then whole genocide thing come into play? Because we're already in like 1953. Okay. Yeah. No, so I'm getting there. I'm going fast. Oh wait, but you said the seventies, so I guess we're creeping up on it. Yeah. So next comes to Vietnam War. Yes, and this is where shit goes sideways. So in an effort to stop the North Vietnamese army from using Cambodia as their base, the US gets involved and basically secretly bombs the shit outta Cambodia for like four straight years. Wow. From 1969 to 1973 saying, Amanda, they were fighting the Vietnamese. Wait and wait. Why was it a secret one and two? Nobody knew about this. No. Like, so like, no, I looked all this up, so I didn't know I was too little. Right? So most of Congress, the United States Congress didn't even know about this. We're talking 540,000 tons of bombs dropped on a neutral country. During the Vietnam War, We're, we're like pretending that we're fighting Vietnam because they were trying to use Cambodia as one of their bases. So we just bombed fucking Cambodia. All right, so there are times, I mean, even today, right, with everything that's going on that. Secret shit happens. I really Well, yeah. And I also go like, well, no wonder why everyone hates the us. Yeah. No, no offense. No, no, no. Totally right. Okay, so let me bring this all together now. So some dudes who call themselves the Kuer Rouge come running outta the jungle where they'd been hiding for a few years building their own army and totally take advantage of all this chaos going on in Cambodia and install themselves as leaders and tell everybody, don't worry, they'll handle everything. So everybody in Cambodia was like, fine. Like, how could it be any worse? What could go wrong? Right? The US is a bunch of assholes for basically bombing us. So what could go wrong? So fine, we'll do it. Just to be clear, the Kuer Rouge weren't some like peaceful government trying to help out. I mean, these guys were hardcore a takeover. This was, this was takeover hardcore communist gorillas coming outta the jungle to takeover, right? Big deal. They were waiting for their chance. How did we not bomb them two then? Okay. Yeah. So they were bombing in the whole country. Why not? Right? So I, good question. So I left to look that up. So remember when I said at the beginning it kind had something to do with the Cold War? Yeah. Okay. So by this time, it's in full swing United States USSR, but if you remember at the beginning of the Cold War, China was back in the USSR, but by the mid 1960 they didn't anymore and sort of became this wild card on the side. So anyway, China ended up backing the Kuer Rouge resume, and ultimately they were installed as Cambodia's governing body, which totally legitimized it. And since the US were already fighting in the Vietnam War, they were like, yeah, I'm not dealing with China. Let's get outta here. We got other things to worry about. Just like, fine, who cares? Wow. Right. So, so if China wouldn't have backed them, I think we would've done something. But since China backed them, we were like, uh, cold War. Too big of a problem. Too big of a problem. Cold war problem. Yeah. Not doing it. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay. So then how did the whole genocide thing start in the first place? And then why didn't they just run the country like normal? I mean, we just talked about the Middle East. Yeah. And. We kind of get I think more of a sense of the different types of groups and all of like the politicalness of it. Right. But why didn't the KU mayor just want to then like rule the country? Oh, no, they had a plan. No, no, no. They had a very specific plan that, that Yeah. We're about to talk about. Yeah. So let go through that then. Yeah. Okay. So it's 1975. Kuer Rouge is now installed as the government, in the capital city of Pum Pen. And here's where we meet Paul Pot for the first time. Like their leader, that's his name, who'd basically been leading the movement from behind the scenes but nobody really knew. So when the Kuer Rouge officially takes power, he officially takes the leadership. He doesn't like take a fancy title or anything like Kim Jong-un or like his gazillion titles in North Korea. He just decides to go by the name of check this Amanda brother, number one, super basic brother, number one, super unassuming. Yes. Pole pot, right? So know what he was, he was mort, he was morden. That worked. That. Well, I mean, I guess, I mean, I don't know. That was a little bit like sarcastic. Right. I don't know. We don't know his intention. That could work. I'm counting it. Okay. Because we have no chance otherwise. Okay, fine. Okay, fine. He was mor than enough. Mor than enough. He was, than wasn't he more like the opposite of morant? Because like, brother number one sounds pretty unassuming. It does. Like he didn't really want attention. Yeah. Like, unless he was super sarcastic, like I said. I know. Fair. Okay. You are probably right. I am probably wrong. I was just trying to s it we're just call it, we're gonna call it, I needed to shove Morton in somewhere so we could do that. It made it, it made it, I got it. Okay, good. So you're totally right. Fun fact, his name wasn't even really Pole Pot. Okay. His real name was Sath Star, but I guess Pole Pot sounded better. Okay. I don't know. I would've gone with something else like way more intimidating than Pole Pot, but He wasn't really this big brash dictator or anything like that. He was actually quite the opposite. He was totally soft spoken. He actually went to school in Paris and then somehow got hooked on radical Marxism. So when he comes back, he helps form this underground communist party eventually called the Kuer Rouge. And he just sort of stayed in the background for years, like letting this whole thing build up to like the 1960s, for like years and years and years. But what was the premise behind everything then? Like their ideology. It was super simple. They wanted to reset the entire society, like the whole thing, erase all of inequality, start over from zero. They actually called it like wipe out the whole country, everything. Yes. Wow. They called it year zero. That was like their mantra, and the idea was that everything, literally everything from before 1975 in what you would say, quote unquote, the old world was corrupt and needed to be destroyed. That's cities, that's schools, that's religion, money, family structure, everything. They literally wanted to turn Cambodia into a classless, peasant utopia. That was their plan. They were literally in the forest figuring this out for 15 fucking years. Wow, so, so literally within days, the Kuer Rouge emptied all of Cambodia cities, and millions and millions of Cambodians were forced outta their homes and taken to the countryside to work in. Here we go, Amanda, labor camps. Right? How did they just evacuate? Everyone, dude. guns, they're gorillas. They have all the weapons. They have everything they need. So by force, they by, absolutely. They just told people to leave. Period with whatever they could carry. No warning, no plan. Old people, children, everybody. All the sick people in the hospital too. Amanda, when I was reading about this again, they literally took people out of hospital beds and made them walk or figure out how to like get to these camps. Everybody was told it was temporary and that they'd returned. Um, spoiler alert, they never did. Once they were out in the rice fields, there was no food, there was no medicine, no rest. They like nothing. 12 to 16 hours a day, they just worked. No breaks. Under constant surveillance from the ation. How do you just be expected to farm for 12 to 16 hours? That's the, that's it. They don't care. They, that was their, that's like a long, they were brainwashing the shit out of them. That was the plan. Hmm. Farm or die. Done and done. Whether it was from starvation, exhaustion, saying the wrong thing to like the wrong person would just shoot them. This is just all crazy. Yeah. This is, so here's where it gets super crazy. Right? It wasn't based on race. Or religion or anything so you remember the Holocaust, like it was based on being a Jew? I mean, stop. Correct. I'm, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not minimizing anything. They were doing this just based on identity. Just on identity. But what do you mean by identity? Like just being Cambodian. So remember the idea of this was they wanted a peasant agrarian society again, like that utopian farming society. So anybody who was educated, if you were educated, you were a threat. To like their system. Okay. So teachers, doctors, lawyers, students. If they figured out that you were somebody with an education, you were killed. Wow. If you were religious, like a monk, a nun, a priest, anything also killed. If you belong to any minority group and you weren't Cambodian, like Vietnamese, um, C Muslims, Chinese Cambodians, you, you're seen as impure. You were killed. Wow. Even their own people in the Kuer Rouge weren't safe. If you were suspected of disloyalty or didn't quite believe in the system, those got killed. Right. But like, how did they figure it out? How would they know if you were a teacher or a doctor? They didnt. A lawyer, they didn't not give a shit at all. I mean, if you wore glasses, thought maybe you could read, you would die. That was enough to get you killed. Uh, soft hands. If you had soft hands, never worked a day in your life, you get killed. That's how it, it sus just suspicion, just started killing. So they just really just wanted the laborers, peasant life. Yes. Anything above that. I mean, so in a way it's a little bit of classism. Right. Or being like, but they were trying to, bring it back to a classless society. Right, right. Yes. But they did pick a class. I mean, they want everyone to be peasants, so it's not as if it's classless. So, so say so to them it was classless. It was back to the basics. But I get your point. There would've been one class and that class was the peasant class. Yes. You are correct. Well, how about all the kids then? Because I mean, kids aren't teachers or doctors, or if they're students, they're killed. They don't care. Even little kids. Yep. Didn't care. So just if the little kids got in line and farmed next to their mom or dad, they were okay. They were safe. Oh, okay. But if for some reason they were carrying a book, wear a pair of glass, they're, they're killed so earlier you, you know, brought up the holocaust just a little bit and you know, during the Holocaust they had gas chambers. Did they also do something. Like in that realm? Or was it just like a quick went in, killed everyone who didn't fit in the P lifestyle? Oh, no, no, no. 'cause they were figuring it all out too, right? Like so there were, there was, it was a little bit of both, but I mean, they had torture chambers for sure. Like they turned like torture chambers. They schools into torture chambers. Oh yes, absolutely. They had one place called S 21, also known as tool slang. Used to be a high school in PNA Pen, over 18,000 Cambodians were brought there to be photographed, interrogated, and then tortured. Oh my gosh. After that, they were executed right there on the spot or transported to the killing fields, just outside the city. Yep. That's insane, right? I know, it's crazy. I, okay, well, I don't know if I really wanna ask, but The Killing Fields, like it's in the title of this podcast and you haven't really elaborated on it, but there was just like. Fields where you would go to be executed? Yes, absolutely. It was terrible. The killing fields were what they called the execution or burial sites that they used to bury all the bodies. Wow. So it was a ton of them, but 300 of them all over Cambodia. Uh, one of the most famous ones, 300 killing fields. 300 killing fields. Wow. Yes, they made them. Okay. So, you've seen the movie Killing Fields 1984. It came out actually 40th anniversary of that movie. I mean, it, it came out before I was born. Oh my God. So I should definitely watch it. Yeah. Unbelievable. Like, crazy. Like One of the best movies I've ever watched in my life anyway. Um, one of the most famous of 'em was called Show Young Eck. It was about 10 miles south of the Capitol Pin ONM pen. And they weren't like hidden or anything. Most of 'em were located near the labor camps or by the prisons or the torture chambers, like the S 21. Right. Or the tool slang that I was just talking about. So basically victims were told they were relocated. Blindfolded and tied up and then brought in at night on trucks or whatever. When they arrived at the killing fields, they were executed immediately, mostly with like axes or farm tools. 'cause they wanted to like save bullets. Wow. Right. Crazy. Then they were dumped into shallow mass graves, sometimes still alive. Amanda, I read, I read this with loud music playing or loud generators so like they would go over the sounds of the killing and that, that's insane. That's what they called the killing fields. That's insane. Yes. And then. So these, the gorillas kind of started for 15 years planning. Is there an exact number of how many they were when they first started to then, like at this point, 0.0 like personally, how many people they had? I did not, I, no. Okay. Too sophisticated me. I have no idea. like a large enough group to be able to really take over the entire country, but No, I've, I don't have a clue. Well, and the reason why I ask that is because I am gonna Google that shit right now. Well, and the reason why I ask is because if they've pushed out millions and millions of people, and I get it, they were much more angry, forceful weapons, like all the things that. They were able to accomplish that. But like in my head I'm like, how many of them were there in order to do that and have 300 killing fields and control everything? There was just 20 really smart guys. No, there weren't. Just kidding. I know. Sorry. Oh my goodness. Well, they weren't allowed to be smart, remember? Were they had to be. It's a class of society. I just looked this up. So, membership in the whole regime was 526,000 members. Okay, but that's, that's not soldiers or military. Right. Um, military estimates look like there could have been 30,000 regular soldiers with up to a hundred thousand in reserve. Wow. Okay. So, I don't know. Is that at the 5 26? Yeah. A hundred and yeah. A 30 of 'em. Yeah. What is that? A fourth of 'em maybe? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So a a lot. Yeah. I mean, the regime is bigger than I thought it would be. Yeah, so basically a hundred thousand military people took over about 7 million Cambodians. That's, that was a population of Cambodia at the time. Wow. And then they ended up killing about 2 million of them, almost a quarter of their population. Right. That's, that's insane. My brain can't. That's, it's unbelievable. Frightening. In just four years. In four years for 9, 7, 9, 7, 9. Done. So, so fun fact, and I, isn't a fun fact. It's disgust ing fact, disgusting fact. Right? Only 20 people are confirmed to have ever made it out of that, um, torture chamber. That S 21, oh my gosh. Alive. Yeah. So how come this doesn't get as much exposure as a Holocaust? So, yeah. So, right. So I thought the same thing. Like I was kind of pissed off 'cause I remember when I was watching it, like I watched the movie, but I don't remember learning about this shit in school. Like I did the Holocaust, so I looked this all up. It was kind of messy. Okay. It's like political messy. Well, but is it like, I don't like this Is it, you're not gonna like what you hear. Sure. But sorry, lemme just ask this question. Yeah. What is it that we don't learn about it? Because the US. Were shitbags and bombing Cambodia and like led the way to this regime taking over bingo. And so we don't wanna draw attention to our bingo. Thank you very much. So for one, Vietnam was the one who overthrew the Kuer Rous, ultimately not the United States while they were fighting in the Vietnam War. Yeah. When we pulled outta the Vietnam War, Vietnam turned their sights on Cambodia and went in. Wow. And took him out. Okay. Right. And it wasn't like we were ready to celebrate with Vietnam because we basically were pretending we won the Vietnam War when we got our ass kicked. And so we were like, uh, we're not gonna look over there. We are gonna pretend we don't know what's happening. How do you like this, the United States, and I mean, I'm even gonna say the un hated Vietnam so much. Uh, we let the KH Rouge keep Cambodia a seat at the United Nations until 1993. They were overthrown by Vietnam in 1979. They would rather have that regime Yes. In power than Vietnam. Wow. Yes. For 15 years, we'd let. Them still be legitimized. I don't like, it's disgusting. Right. That's insane. Okay. Another thing I found was that the Khm Rouge was crazy about cutting Cambodia off from the rest of the world. Well, that's how they keep their control, right? Right. Well, no, but that's how come we don't hear about it. So like there was no media, no international aid, no travel. So like the Holocaust where the soldiers found all the camps, they documented everything in Cambodia. Very few people actually saw anything that was happening in real time. At all. It wasn't until way after. So in general, there were like way fewer survivors that even fled Cambodia to start talking about it in the first place. So with the Holocaust, all these Jewish communities came together and they started to preserve everything like pretty quickly. 'cause that's Jewish culture, that's what they do. They come together. But in Cambodia, they didn't have those kind of communities, so they just stayed super silent, just wanted to survive. They didn't wanna talk about it. So just culturally it was different. So we didn't even know, I mean, I'm sure people knew, but like that's why it didn't get like airplay, like the Holocaust got airplay. Okay. So that's why it wasn't in the spotlight. But it matters just as much. Like why? Oh, it absolutely does. Do we not learn about this atrocity? We have to now, and that's why we're doing a podcast on it. Fair. 'cause this is amazing. Yes. 'cause the scale of suffering, I would argue was bigger. Then the whole God, I mean, 2 million people, 2 million outta 7 million. Right. Done and done. They didn't, it just, it's Cambodia was third world, like people like, but but it doesn't matter. I mean, like that is, I'm not agreeing. I know you're not with what everybody else is saying. I know you're not. I'm just trying to report the facts of like, it's our job to like educate the next generation. We're not gonna forget we're we and have tough conversations, conversation. We're gonna do a podcast on conversation. Absolutely. That's, we're doing. Okay. Fair. This is our little way of getting it out in the open. Okay. As ugly as it is, as terrible as it is. I know. All right. I know. We'll back on track then. Okay. Another question. Yes. Well, whatever happened to a pole pot and the Kuer Rouge. Uh, like did they Oh, good. Old Morden, pole Pot. Is that what you're asking about? Yeah. Mor Morden, right? Yes. Morden. Yeah. Um, but did they get dragged into something like the Nuremberg trials, like they did for the Germans and the Holocaust, or was it just all Yeah, it was weird. Overlooked and passed on. A little weird. Like I said earlier, with the whole United Nations letting the Kuer Rouge keep their seat. Right. That's what it sounded like for 15 years. It was kind of, they were still, it sort of sucked. So it wasn't until, yeah, 1995. So after the United Nations kicked them out. Okay. Right. So now it's 1995, they finally said, okay, maybe we should do something about this genocide now. So by then, pole Pot was hiding out in the jungle again, living with his little group of loyalists. And, uh, he was never arrested and he reportedly died in his hammock. In 1998 when he was 72 years old, no trial, no justice, nothing, none, nothing. Not for him. What? No, but eventually there was a trial. So I can't even believe I'm saying this date. Are you ready for this? In 2006, 2006? Like that's when the trial started. Not even 20 years ago. Thank. In 2006, the trial started Cambodia and the UN finally launched the Kuer Rouge Tribunal officially called the extraordinary chambers in the courts of Cambodia. And over the next 16 years, I mean, wait, that means like 2022? Yes. All the way to 2022. It barely three years ago. Yes, I know. They were finally able to try and convict a few, well 'cause they're all dead of their senior leaders for crimes against Humanity and genocide. Three to be exact three. And they were 16 years and two of them were dead already. So posthumously and one of them I think ended, I think he's dead now, I'm sure. But now, yeah, I mean super old. A minute, three years ago they closed it. Wow. I know. Like how does a country come back from that? I very slowly but surely. Like it is, it is so crazy. It is so crazy what the youth in Cambodia is doing now. Really? To try to bring it back. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what are they doing? Okay, so wait a second. So first of all, another fun fact. Well, well this one is a fun fact actually. Um, Cambodia has the youngest population in the world. Do you know over 70% of Cambodians were born after the genocide. So So post 1979. Yes. Absolutely. So for most of them, the Khm Rouge is something like their grandparents lived through, but nobody ever talked about. But that's also like, blows your mind if you think about it. I know, I know. But they're starting to like finally take the TikTok and like start to talk about the story. There's a lot of music coming out. There's a lot of like art and literature. A lot of stuff's happening now. But. Kind of a lot of like old people forgetting young people trying to deal with this new reality of like, what is Cambodia today? Yeah. This it, it's so frightening because there have been genocides in our, like the history for years and years, right? Yes. It seemingly like we're not learning from the past. We are not. Um, because I know that there are even some today in the headlines, there are, and they're disgusting. And here we are talking about one 50 years ago when we could be talking about a number of them today. Right. And we don't, I mean, do you know what we should do right now? What. We should talk about them right now. Oh. Oh, we should. We should. No, we don't have to talk all about them. Okay. But we should like just like let people know what's going on today. Okay. Can I do today? That's sure what you can do today. I can do, I mean, it's good, it's good. Can I do two sentences my groaning over It is like that feeling of uncomfortableness, but I think that's the feeling that we all should probably live in a little bit. Yeah. And accept and like acknowledge that this is a reality in today's world. It is absolutely. And we're gonna go there, we're gonna rip a bandaid, and we're just gonna call out a few of them, okay? Okay. Rip. I, I won't get all of them, but I'll get a few of them. Okay? So first of all, Gaza, right? Yeah. Israel Palestine. I don't give a shit. What side you're on right now. Doesn't matter to me. Un experts and human rights groups have begun labeling the war in Gaza that has gone on to 2023. Mind you, as genocidal. Okay. Remember genocide is defined as deliberate and systematic destruction of a group of people because of their ethnicity, nationality, religion, or race. So all sort of happening in one form or another in Gaza. Okay? Um, then you have Darfur in Sudan with their whole civil war. The RSF is accused of mass killings, rapes, starvation tactics, forced displacement and ethnic cleansing, especially targeting the MAIT people. No, that's still going on. That is so, no. It used to be in the news all the time. You don't hear about it. Absolutely at all. Uh, then you have the mass extermination campaign against the Rohingya in Myanmar that's still going on, killing, rape, forced displacement, and against destruction, right? All. Amanda, that one goes back to 2017. Went on for a while, stopped a little bit now, started back up again in 2024 under the, uh, the Tamo, the Myanmar military and the Iraqian armies estimates are somewhere between 25,040 5,000 people already killed. With over a million refugees forced into camps in Bangladesh across Southeast Asia. It's amazing that we just don't hear about it anymore. No, it's terrible. Uh, and then the one in China, the one in China is the one that blows me away. That's the repression of the Uyghurs, right? That's the, uh, I don't know if you remember. They're like, I think they're Turkic, Chinese Right. So as of 2025, over 500,000 Uyghurs and other Turkic remain in internment facilities or prisons. Without due process. Wow. They're subjected to forced labor programs. Uh, they're calling them, if you remember reeducation campaigns. Oh my God. Totally similar. Like we've heard that before, right? Torture, surveillance. Uh, there are reports that now show forced sterilizations, abortions, and mass birth prevention campaigns targeting Uyghur women in Xingjiang. Right. Children are being separated from parents and placed in state run boarding schools for quote unquote reeducation. And their mosque cemeteries and cultural sites have mostly been destroyed or all repurposed already, like it is crazy what's going on in China, and the Chinese government is like completely ignoring this. It's, it's terrible. It is I, I mean, I'm kind of speechless, like it's awful. All of this, I told you this is gonna be a shitty episode. All of it is so awful and we just don't think about it enough. And I mean, it doesn't affect our daily life, so we just kind of tune it out. No, it same, same. Pretend like it doesn't exist, I guess. Yeah. But literally millions of people are being tortured and killed and displaced today. And I just can't process this so much. I spend like five minutes reading about it and then I have a moment and then I have to get up and like make dinner or go on a run or do whatever I do, right? I can't, I can't process it either, right? But this is why millions of people are dying. Right now. Correct. Today still, right. You know, all of these circumstances and we're here in America, like we get to do a podcast, right? How lucky, like our privilege is showing. Yes, yes. A lot. But it shows how even though something that happened 50 years ago, which seems like a long time to many people, especially, you know, anyone born after 1970, um, there's still this huge impact Totally. That this one regime had on a whole country Yes. Let alone like all the ones that you just mentioned, how that's affecting those countries today, right now. And the danger of forgetting about what happened 50 years ago is real. Because once we forget these things happen, are we like, just don't even, we we become numb. Yeah. And it all Yeah. De desensitized. Right. And we, and we repeat and we hate it's, and that's, that's what we talk about all the time. Yeah. So remember how I said the, younger Cambodian generation isn't doing the same thing their grandparents were doing. Yeah. Like, yes. So kind of cool stuff. So Gen Z creators, are starting to reclaim this history, right? So good on them. I said TikTok videos, spoken word poetry, public murals doc. starting to make documentaries now. So like they've learned about, uh, genocide outside of school, right? Because it, well, they weren't, it wasn't like they were learning it right inside of their co that that only started happening recently. So they had to like figure this out through their own curiosity and as a result, they're starting to band together. I just think it's amazing the way, like, they don't generations. They don't want history to be erased. I think that's excellent. Yeah. So for those voiceless that just wanted to figure out how to get through the older generation, the younger generation is now stepping up and saying, no, this is bullshit. We gotta do something about it. Well, I think that's what generational trauma is. I think it's excellent. People don't talk about or acknowledge enough, I feel like. Right, right. Um, because like you said, it's not just Cambodia. Yep. Rwanda, Armenia, Bosnia. There are so many places where genocides got buried. Yeah. Oh my God. Rwanda, yes, they're politicized, you know, or they're forgotten completely just by the rest of the world. And what happened in Cambodia isn't like a fluke. Nope. You know, if I were to pick a word, um, but it's a pattern. Right. Happened times before and it's continuing to happen. And if we don't recognize what those patterns are, then we can never stop history from repeating itself. You can like we need to learn, be aware and call it out. Yeah. Right. Who benefits if we don't talk about it anymore? Who benefits if we forget everything? Nobody. Right, right. Nobody. Zero. Oh, man. Okay. Pete, what? That's so heavy. This was, because it's not even just about the 50 years, it's about today and what we're It's still happening. We're living Okay. We probably should do podcast episodes on all of these. I we really, we probably should. I know, I know. Yes. Yeah. We should all sit, I mean, and really assess, right. The darkness that's out there. Um, but. Is it time to maybe lighten it up? I don't know. I feel so bad even asking to lighten it up because it's I'm, I'm lightening it up. Okay. We have to stay true. I, to lightening this up, I mean, I'm sure that there are some interesting facts there are that happened that aren't terrible. Hopefully. Hopefully. Okay. Fingers, fingers crossed. Right? I mean, it's a big ask. I know, but Right. Look, we got through this with Nagasaki and Hiroshima. We got through it with D-Day. I know. I'll get through it. We did, we did. But it's still have a little faith in Morden, Pete. I do. Okay. Okay. Here we go. All right, fine. Here we go. So number one, do you remember when we were talking about the killing fields? 1984 40th year anniversary of like Yeah. Movie coming out. Okay. So the only Oscar winning Cambodian is a genocide survivor. Yeah. So Dr. Hang Sinor. Who played Journalist Death Prawn in the killing fields. He wasn't even an actor. Wow. He was a real life doctor and survivor of the Khm Rouge who escaped after four years in a labor camp. Then they Asked him to be in this movie, the Killing Fields, And he won the 1985 Academy Award for best supporting actor, one of the very few non-professional actors to ever win an award. That's incredible. His win turned the survival into Spotlight. Oh, I loved it. It was excellent. Amanda. Have you ever seen this movie? I have not. I already said that. I know, but like fine, but like, can you, I'm going to please. Yes. Okay. This is very, I'll watch it with you. Okay. Do you want a terrible fact after that? Fun fact. I mean, so this doctor who, it just got a little better. Okay. Okay, go ahead. Go ahead. The doctor who won the Academy Award Yeah. In 1996, right? He was murdered in Los Angeles. What? Yep. In 1996, he was murdered. In 1996, he was murdered outside of his apartment building in Los Angeles, California. Oh, who? Yeah. So, um, I believe it was like some Cambodian gang members that they tied it to and like they're in jail and everything. Um, but they never did figure out if it was related to holdovers from the, uh, KUER Rouge. Wow. Um, who, were like seeking him out or something. Right. So, totally sucks. Oh, dang. I know. Terrible. Okay. Sorry to bring it down. Okay. Next fun fact. The Cambodian Living Arts program is reviving culture from the ashes founded by genocide, survivor, armed, or pond. This organization trains young Cambodians in traditional music, dance, and theater art forms that were nearly lost under the Kuer Rouge. Remember they were going back like peasant society. Yeah. Like they didn't have any of this shit. Right? So some of their performances are now touring internationally, including at Carnegie Hall. So that's pretty cool, right? It is. Cool. So the art that almost vanished, almost vanished is now center stage again. That's awesome. At Carnegie Hall. So that, that, that's an uplifting one, right? Yeah. Okay. Um, alright. You remember Prison S 21? Yes. Tool slang. That prison. Okay. That was once the high school. Yep. So today they now turned it into a genocide museum run by the survivors and historians. And it's visited by thousands of students and tourists every year. I mean, I think it is awesome. So I like that when you have places that are ran by survivors or historians that tell the truth of, yeah, Texas, what happened there? We're, we're getting somewhere. There's like one slowly get all of New Orleans plantation that like tells a true story. That's awesome. And we visit it. Like it is, it's life changing. So definitely put this on my pin board of places to go. Okay. I just got goosebumps. Uh, okay. Next one. The Cambodian diaspora is building bridges back. Okay. Wow. From Long Beach, California, home to the largest Cambodian community outside of Cambodia. Did you know that I did Not Long Beach, right to Paris, second generation Kuer artists, chefs, scholars, and podcasters. Even though I'm not a second generation podcaster are reconnecting with their heritage, often blending global and traditional styles to celebrate their survival. That's very cool. Why are Kumar Kumar artists a part of that if they were the bad guys? I don't know. Hmm. I'm just gonna take that out and say second generation artists, chefs, scholars, and podcasters. They're reconnecting with their heritage. And finally, Cambodia now teaches genocide education in their schools with survivor input. So remember I said like they weren't doing that for a while, and the Gen Zs were figuring out their own. So in 2009, Cambodia became one of the first countries to include its own genocide. In the national high school curriculum, the textbooks were developed with the help from survivors, historians, and human rights groups, and have become a model for post-conflict education globally. Thank you very much. I do think that that's incredible and I, it's also kind of like mind blowing that there are survivors alive today to be able to tell the story. Like, we're living in it. I know. Yeah. Wow. These, these dudes are my age. I, it's so close. Right? I know. It's to home that we don't even realize how close it is. Very much so. But I'm also very proud of myself for making at least semi uplifting fun. I do. I do think we're not mostly kind of sort of having us end on total despair. That was very nice thought I did pretty good. Okay. Well, why don't you just like, uh, take us home then and recap what we should remember. Take home from today's episode. Lets do it. Let's do it. Cliff. Cliff. No version it. Okay. Alright. So heavy episode, I get it. Uh, I'm gonna start with books. If you wanna learn more and really understand what happened in Cambodia during the Kumon Rouge era, start with First they killed my father. That's by Luang Ung. Or When Broken Glass floats by Chantry Hymn. They both give you a firsthand perspective of children who survived the resume and somehow came out the other side or read Survivor by Chum May one of the few people who made it outta that S 21 prison I was talking about earlier. These are not easy reads like at all, but they're super honest and like super unforgettable. Uh, if books aren't your thing, watch the movie. The Killing Fields, we already talked about that. Total Classic won some Academy awards. Big deal. Uh, you could also watch first they Killed My Father. Based on that book I just talked about, directed by Angelina Jolie. Another amazing movie. That one just came out in 2017 and that was filmed entirely in Cambodia with a local Cambodian cast. That's amazing. Yeah. Um, and then if you feel like you gotta go all in, it's time to visit Cambodia. People walk through the museum at Toole slang, Or stand at Show Young Eck. And then when you've absorbed all that, go see a Cambodian Living Arts performance and listen to the music that almost disappeared forever. That's how you honor history people, not just by learning about it, but by letting it move you. Oh, and then finally, remember these relevant details just seem sort of sophisticated. Pole Pots, KUER Rouge killed nearly 2 million people. That's about one in four Cambodians. This wasn't war. It was a genocide of civilians targeting teachers, monks, artists, even people who wore glasses or spoke of foreign language. Number two, the Kuer Rouge emptied Cambodia cities in 1975 to create a classless agrarian utopia. People were forced into rural labor camps with no money, no religion, no education. Even romantic relationships had to be state approved. Wow. I know. Number three, toole slang. S 21 was a high school turned into a torture prison where over 14,000 people were killed and only about a dozen survived. It's now a genocide museum in one of the most haunting memorials in all of Southeast Asia. Number four. Cambodia is one of only few countries that formally teaches about its own genocide in schools with input from its survivors. And finally, 2025 marks 50 years since the genocide began, and Cambodia's youth are leading a cultural revival through art. Music and digital storytelling, so we never forget the atrocities that took place there. All right, friends. Well, that's it for this week's episode, it was surely a heavier one than most. But if you learn something new, it felt a little shaken or maybe found yourself thinking more deeply about what humans are capable of. Then we did what we came here to do. You don't need to memorize every detail or date, but remembering even a little of what happened in Cambodia helps to make sure we never forget something like this and that we can maybe prevent something unthinkable like this happening again. So, if you like this episode, share it with someone who still thinks history is just kings dates and old maps. Don't explain. Just let them hear the part about people being executed for wearing glasses and see where the conversation goes. And hey, subscribe, follow us. Leave us a good review. Or better yet, bring up sort of sophisticated next time someone flexes that they watched a documentary. I don't really care how you spread it or if you, like you hear about a new documentary we haven't talked about, shoot it our way. I love that. We don't really care how you spread the word. We just love that you're here leaning into these hard stories with us and staying curious along the way. So until next time, stay compassionate, stay aware, and if all else fails, just whisper utopian farming experiment and watch the room go silent. Oh my God. That was a hard end.
