Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome to Sorta Sophisticated with Pete and Amanda. Okay, so, Amanda, you know how everybody always says, follow your passion?
[00:00:08] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:00:08] Speaker A: Like, you've heard that your whole life. Yeah.
[00:00:09] Speaker B: Okay, what's my passion?
[00:00:11] Speaker A: Huh? No, like, what's your passion? I don't know. You have a million passions, woman. We all know how many passions you have. Yeah. Okay. Do what you love and money will follow. All these, like, whatever they're called. Colloquialisms. I don't know. Right. Follow your dream bullshit. Thank you very much. Okay, I've decided. Stake in the ground. This is what we're. This is my rant today. This episode is a rant. Okay. I've decided that is the worst advice anyone has ever given. Follow your passion. And by the way, I have given it. So I'm off the train, jumping off the track. This is it. I'm gonna argue that following your passion has caused more. I'm gonna say anxiety, more wasted time and wasted life than any idea in modern culture. So here's what we're gonna do today. Are you ready for this?
[00:00:53] Speaker B: Some Jedi mind trick bullshit.
[00:00:54] Speaker A: Boom. Yes. This is what's happening. So first, I'm gonna explain why Follow youw passion is not just unhelpful, it's actually a lie. A lie. A level seven lie, well meaning lie, but nonetheless a lie.
Second, we're gonna tell you where passion actually comes from. Cause I did a bunch of research and now I know it's not from where you think. Not even close. Spoiler. This is gonna be good. And third, we're gonna give you the question you should actually be asking yourself instead.
[00:01:22] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:01:22] Speaker A: To, like, really figure all this out, which is way less romantic than follow your passion, but it works, I promise. I've tried it on my kids. I have proof, living proof. So if you ever felt like something's wrong with you because you haven't figured out your passion, then stay with us because nothing's wrong with you. You just got bad instructions. And Amanda and I are setting the record straight today. So we're welcome back to sort of sophisticated, the podcast where culture, curiosity, and chaos collide. I'm Pete.
[00:01:51] Speaker B: And I'm Amanda. Ready to unmystify this. Follow your passion, the passion.
[00:01:58] Speaker A: Rod Stewart passion. Song of passion. No. Ooh, that would be good.
[00:02:01] Speaker B: Now we're over there. Just go to word of the week, because we don't need to dwell on the fact that I don't know that Rod Stewart song.
[00:02:06] Speaker A: We'll do word of the week, but we need the keyboard or whatever we could, like Insert noises. That would be good.
[00:02:12] Speaker B: Kind of like Stranger Things when Robin does her little.
[00:02:16] Speaker A: Can we do that? Hey, Engineer Amanda, can you please figure this out? Okay.
All right, word of the week. No, word of the week. Wait. Okay, hold on. Episode title. Episode title. You're not lost. You're just waiting for the wrong feeling. Okay, little. Little trick there. Okay, word of the week, ready? Word of the week is a nimical.
[00:02:33] Speaker B: Like a nickel or a comical or. I don't.
[00:02:36] Speaker A: Comic, maybe. Comical, not nickel. There's no K. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah. No, I N, I M, I C,
[00:02:40] Speaker B: A L. C, A, L. Okay.
[00:02:41] Speaker A: Yes, a nimical. It's an adjective. It means tending to, obstruct or harm something. Oh, like tending to.
[00:02:48] Speaker B: So the opposite of comical.
[00:02:49] Speaker A: Actively working against.
[00:02:51] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:02:52] Speaker A: Yes. Okay, so basically you.
[00:02:54] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:02:55] Speaker A: On every episode of this podcast ever.
[00:02:57] Speaker B: I never.
[00:02:57] Speaker A: Where I have a plan and I'm ready to attack something. You are a nimal and you're delusional.
[00:03:04] Speaker B: But it's okay. We'll. We'll work it in. We'll work it.
[00:03:06] Speaker A: Okay, fine. I haven't worked one in, like, 10 weeks. This one's onto you. Okay. It comes from the Latin word animicus, which literally means enemy. So if something is inimical to you, it's your enemy.
[00:03:16] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:03:16] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:03:16] Speaker B: All right. Okay. I'm gonna use that word someday.
Like, against somebody.
[00:03:20] Speaker A: Not on me.
[00:03:21] Speaker B: No, no. But like, somebody who's, like, my enemy. And I'm going to sound extremely smart.
[00:03:24] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:03:25] Speaker B: And just be like.
[00:03:26] Speaker A: And piss them off even more.
[00:03:27] Speaker B: They don't even know what it is.
[00:03:28] Speaker A: Right? No, they're not. They're not going to understand that you're shitting on them. That's going to be good.
[00:03:32] Speaker B: Here we go.
[00:03:33] Speaker A: This is what we do. This. If there's anything you can learn from this that's all sort of sophisticated, is about learning a new word and making your enemy feel like shit. Okay, fine.
[00:03:40] Speaker B: Here we go. Okay, so passion. Is that where we're starting today?
[00:03:42] Speaker A: Passion?
[00:03:42] Speaker B: Are we defining passion?
[00:03:43] Speaker A: We're gonna.
[00:03:44] Speaker B: Well, is there history about passion?
[00:03:45] Speaker A: Yes, we'll do all the. A little bit. We've done this before. We'll do a little history. But first, if you like what you're listening to, hit subscribe and follow us. New episodes come out weekly on any of your favorite podcast platforms. Also, if you don't know, we're on YouTube. We've been on YouTube for, I don't know, like, 80 or 90 episodes. Like, a long. A long time now. So anyway, watch on there okay, yeah. So, like, there's a little history, but for the most part, it's like new. It's not like age old stuff here. I think we talked about on one of our episodes, maybe the millennial midlife crisis. I don't know.
[00:04:13] Speaker B: I vaguely remember that.
[00:04:14] Speaker A: I think so. So, like, back in the olden days, during the age this will probably ring a bell. Most people were just trying not to die back when they were right. They didn't want to get eaten by dinosaurs. Like your great great grandmother wasn't lying in bed wondering, oh, am I living my authentic truth today? Like the person.
[00:04:27] Speaker B: There also wasn't as many options back in the day.
[00:04:30] Speaker A: No, they went out on the farm and just like, made sure there was food for people, that you were content
[00:04:34] Speaker B: in your life, even though it was hard.
[00:04:36] Speaker A: It sucked. Yes. And for the most part, you did whatever. Your mom, like, your mom was a homemaker, you were a homemaker, Your dad was a farmer, you farmed. That's it. It wasn't bigger than that. Did we talk about this? Yes, we talked about it.
[00:04:46] Speaker B: Okay. Yeah.
[00:04:46] Speaker A: Yeah. Okay. So then it stayed like that for a long time. So I'll go faster. All the way up till World War II, because that's the first time the world actually saw what Germany. Remember when Germany went crazy and like, I guess the first time individuals completely surrendered to what you would call like a collective ideology. Right. So Nazi Germany, not the Jew, the Jews were the result of it. Like the Germans that came together and were like, we are following you, Hitler. And that's when people everywhere else in the world went like, fuck this. That's like, not okay. And then it blew up. Like, existentialism took off. Psychology exploded. Like, if you go back and listen to our psychology episode on or around that time, it was getting bigger. And Abraham Maslow and I swear we talked about this guy before he built that whole pyramid of the hierarchy of needs where it was like the bottom was, once you're safe and loved, then you move up and. And you go on like the top of the pyramid. Oh, you become fully yourself. And those are like the. The Buddhist monks and whatever. And I'm nowhere near that. I'm just, thank God I'm safe and loved down here at the bottom. Then add the Industrial revolution on all that. And finally people had enough time and money and all that to sit around and start thinking about life and philosophizing and so on and so forth. So really this whole idea of follow your passion, it's like, I don't know World War II. 70 years old.
[00:05:57] Speaker B: So are we just calling it bullshit because of just the underlying factor? It's only been around for 70 years,
[00:06:02] Speaker A: so I kind of am. Yes. I mean, that's sort of where I'm starting. It's new. We have time to think about it now, so kind of. Yeah, whatever. So some people say Confucius came up with it, like, a gazillion years ago. Have you ever heard of choose a job you love and you'll never work a day in your life?
[00:06:15] Speaker B: I have.
[00:06:16] Speaker A: So people say that he came up with that, but there is no real evidence.
[00:06:20] Speaker B: Huh.
[00:06:21] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, ChatGPT couldn't even find it. Neither could Claude, So let's cut the shit.
[00:06:24] Speaker B: You know, like, it's fascinating to me in this, like, age of technology where you'll, like, scroll and you'll see, like, a little quote or inspirational something, and it'll have, like, a little underline of who the author was or whatever. It actually never came from them?
[00:06:38] Speaker A: Nope.
[00:06:39] Speaker B: But we believe it and we pass it along as if it's truth, because
[00:06:42] Speaker A: we love it, because we like the music.
[00:06:44] Speaker B: So really, Confucius didn't say that?
[00:06:45] Speaker A: No, not at all. Didn't say it? No, Nobody said it. That's my. Listen, follow your path. It's not like somebody came up with it. It's just been. It's just. It's just.
[00:06:53] Speaker B: Right. But that's such a specific.
[00:06:54] Speaker A: It's just out there.
[00:06:55] Speaker B: Choose a job you love and you'll never work a day in your life. Yeah, everyone's heard that.
[00:07:00] Speaker A: I know. Except I'm gonna debunk this whole theory.
[00:07:01] Speaker B: Okay, go ahead.
[00:07:02] Speaker A: Bom, bom, bom.
[00:07:02] Speaker B: I'm already, like, spiraling. Here we are.
[00:07:04] Speaker A: Here we are.
So then Oprah grabs ahold of it in the late 80s, and this one, it gets.
[00:07:09] Speaker B: You get a prize. You get a prize.
[00:07:10] Speaker A: Yeah, totally Oprah, right? I guess. She had a woman on her show named Marcia Sinitar, who published a book called do what yout Love and the Money Will Follow. Okay. And of course, because Oprah loved it, it immediately became a bestseller. And so, by default, follow your passion. All happened all around that time, like, super big. And then 2005, Steve Jobs, founder of Apple, Steve Jobs. We know him. We love him. Okay. Gets a hold of it, tells graduates in his 2005 Stanford commencement address. The only way to do great work is to love what you do. If you haven't found it yet, keep looking and don't settle. And then, by that time, already we had the Internet. And so, like, it went viral, and the rest is history. And here we are, and everybody thinks that that is real important shit. But here's the deal. Do you know where the word passion comes from?
[00:07:58] Speaker B: No.
[00:07:58] Speaker A: Okay. Latin root word, pati P A T, I. To suffer. Like in a bad way, not in a good way. So I'm a Catholic. You ever heard of Catholics? They call it the Passion of the Christ when he's dying on the cross. This is why we call it the Passion of the Christ. The suffering of. Yes, the sacrificial suffering of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. And here we are making it all about excitement and enthusiasm. And it wasn't actually till the 16th century that we started changing that word from suffering to, you know, excitement. And that's why I'm arguing that nobody's been explaining it right after all these years on how passion really works. So I have a question.
[00:08:33] Speaker B: Okay, answer.
[00:08:34] Speaker A: Give me something that. And I'm totally setting you up right now. Just. I'm totally. I'm more in advance. Yes. Give me something that you would say you had to learn to like, before you could appreciate it.
[00:08:48] Speaker B: Escargot.
[00:08:50] Speaker A: Good one.
I like that.
[00:08:52] Speaker B: Is that the path you're going for?
[00:08:53] Speaker A: I don't know, but I. But that's a good one. Yeah. Okay, so, like, what changed? What happened? Tell me what happened. Like, how did you start liking it?
[00:09:01] Speaker B: Oh, I mean, it's like one of those food items that is only you find at a fancy restaurant, you know, Parisian. French restaurant. But you think about what it. Is, it being snails. And you're like, absolutely not.
[00:09:14] Speaker A: Okay, so I gotta go first. So why'd you start it? Why'd you eat it the first time?
[00:09:17] Speaker B: I think it was curiosity because someone had ordered it. Like, you have to try this.
Tried it. Didn't know what it was. Didn't ask questions because that's like being Asian. You just don't ask questions. You just try it and you ask after what it was. And so then after, I was like, oh, no, they're snails. And I was like, nope, why would I want to eat that?
[00:09:32] Speaker A: But then you went back for another one later.
[00:09:34] Speaker B: So then the second time, we were on a cruise, and I was like, let's try it again. Right? And really, it's because the snails are just a vessel for the garlic butter goodness that you use the bread in. Right?
[00:09:43] Speaker A: It's delicious.
[00:09:44] Speaker B: And then the bread always comes. Little toasty, and it's all together. It's good. The snail then gives it a little texture and So I was like, okay, I can understand.
And the way it's prepared is also important, right? Because if they're overcooked, then they're chewy and gross, but if they're cooked well, it's not like a snail. Like, it's a good texture. Does it make you want to get
[00:10:01] Speaker A: the second time that you were excited, or was it like, third time?
[00:10:03] Speaker B: Probably the third time.
[00:10:05] Speaker A: Yeah, but you went back, you kept ordering it.
[00:10:07] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:10:07] Speaker A: Okay, this is. This is my argument. This is how passion works. I am arguing. You just explained passion that nobody wants to hear about because they think that's all bullshit. Stay with me. Okay? So here's how people think it works. Well, at least how it's explained to me. Everybody's supposed to have a passion. You're born with it. It exists inside you somewhere, somehow. I don't even know. And then at some point in your life, you magically discover it. And maybe you're intentional about finding it, but once you find it, the whole idea is supposed to become, quote, effortless. Like, the universe aligns, and all of a sudden your career and your plans and everything takes off and everything's perfect.
[00:10:38] Speaker B: I mean, it sounds too good to be true.
[00:10:40] Speaker A: Here's the problem. Nobody's passionate about something they're bad at. Or in your case, escargot, something you didn't want to pursue.
[00:10:46] Speaker B: So you're arguing you can grow in your passion.
[00:10:47] Speaker A: This is it.
[00:10:48] Speaker B: This is something that may not be intrinsically.
[00:10:50] Speaker A: You're going. You're spoiling. This is it. You don't fall in love with something that confuses you or frustrates you. Ever. My example was piano I was thinking about, right? I say I have this passion for piano. I want to learn music, I want to learn piano. Bullshit. Because if I really wanted to, I'd practice it every day, and I wouldn't be pissed off when I am sitting down at the piano, but banging on keys and my kids are laughing at me because of how frustrated I'm getting. So you don't write, you don't magically have this passion. You need to develop this over a long period of time. And whether I want to admit it or not, the piano, that's not it for me. That price of entry, too high for piano for you? Escargot. It wasn't too high.
[00:11:29] Speaker B: You can grow to like it versus piano. It takes commitment, time. Commitment takes everything. I'm sure you have to hire. Yeah, yeah, piano teacher.
[00:11:35] Speaker A: Yeah, right. If you want to go think price of entry this whole time. Just Stick with what's the payoff? That's really what the crux of my argument is. So here's my sort of sophisticated definition of passion. Because I'm arguing it's three things layered on top of each other. So the first one is familiarity, being familiar with something. Okay. You've done it enough times that it doesn't feel weird anymore. Like, you. You test drove it. That's literally what you did with escargot 3, 4 times. Second one, you're sort of competent at it. Like, you got to a point where you're good enough that it stops being painful. Okay. You've gotten over the, you know, proverbial hump. And then third, you have some sort of. I'm gonna call it early success with, like, something went right at some point in your life and someone noticed you or it and what was going on and that made you feel good.
[00:12:23] Speaker B: Extrinsic motivation. Yes.
[00:12:24] Speaker A: Bingo. And you were like, oh, okay, I can do a little more of this. Cause somebody just told me I was good at it. I'm arguing those three things. Familiarity, competence, and, like, early success is what is the sort of secret recipe for what we call, quote, unquote, passion.
[00:12:42] Speaker B: So the magic sauce, that's it. To getting to be passionate about something.
[00:12:45] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:12:46] Speaker B: You're telling me. Can be locked down in three things?
[00:12:47] Speaker A: Yes. But that's work. That's. You're not magic. That's not magic. I mean.
[00:12:51] Speaker B: Yes. Your argument is that it's not just oozing out of you, that you have to find it, cultivate it, be intentional, competent. You have to be intentional.
[00:13:01] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:13:01] Speaker B: Once people notice, it refills your cup. To want to push your drive to learn more, do better, et cetera, et cetera.
[00:13:09] Speaker A: Here's where shit gets real. There's a moment, and I think that anybody who's found something they've loved, like, it's when something starts to shift, it's when you get over that hump, that apex of the whole. It's not painful to learn anymore. And that's when it stops being work and starts being interesting. And I'm arguing it's that very specific moment that's not when you find your passion. When you've. You've literally made it to the top of the mountain and you've realized it's clicking. Now, that's the argument. I'm. I'm taking the word passion out of the dictionary.
[00:13:38] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:13:38] Speaker A: Does this make sense?
[00:13:39] Speaker B: Yes. So instead of passion, where you're saying something clicks.
[00:13:41] Speaker A: Yes. Yes.
[00:13:42] Speaker B: You're just something Just happens the light switch is turned on.
[00:13:44] Speaker A: You're slightly better than you were the week before. Think of the podcast. We got a little bit better. I'm not saying we have this great podcast, but, like, literally each week it was like, oh, my God, it was a train wreck. Go back. And you're learning, right?
[00:13:53] Speaker B: You're learning. You're.
[00:13:54] Speaker A: And then you start getting more comfortable. You actually. You start getting good at. Right? So, okay, think of running. I run all the time. I talk about running.
[00:14:00] Speaker B: I don't want to talk about running.
[00:14:01] Speaker A: Okay? But when I say that to somebody, they probably just assume that I always loved running.
[00:14:05] Speaker B: For the amount that you run, it doesn't be very passionate about running.
[00:14:07] Speaker A: I'm arguing. I am. But here's the deal. That's shit. Like, I didn't like running. When I started running, I actually hated it. I was probably 26, 27 years old. I was uncomfortable. I was a little overweight. It was boring. It hurt. The whole thing sucked. It was nothing. I remember there was nothing.
[00:14:21] Speaker B: Light switch came on for you.
[00:14:22] Speaker A: Then I signed up for a 10k in Chino Hills with my dad.
[00:14:26] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:14:27] Speaker A: My dad was getting older. I don't know. He's in his 60s. And I'm like, yeah, you want to. He's like, sure, I'll do it. I did it with my dad. Did it super slow. Didn't matter, but it was the farthest I ever ran. And I was like, huh? That was the shift. I was like, I've literally never done this before. And I wasn't hurt. Nothing broke. I felt good. So I was like, I got to do that again. And that's the moment. I'm not saying I fell in love with running at all. I'm not saying I had a passion for running. That's the moment when I got curious. I started going, okay, just like you with escargot. Okay, I can do this again.
And then eventually, over 30 years, I absolutely would call it a passion now. And it's super easy for me now. Wake up in the morning, put on my shoes, go out, and if I don't, I'm uncomfortable. I have to go out in the morning to do it. But the passion came over 30 years of learning, not over one time of trying.
[00:15:15] Speaker B: Okay?
[00:15:16] Speaker A: And I. And I certainly. Let's cut to shit. Was not good at it. And I'd argue today I'm not that good at it.
[00:15:22] Speaker B: And I'm gonna argue. I mean, you have to have some sort of interest or some sort of intrinsic motivation, I think, to Further your journey to a passion. Because I've ran.
I do it only when I have to.
[00:15:38] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:15:38] Speaker B: And I just gotta be faster than that one person. If a bear's chasing us, that's my only motivation. It's not a passion of mine.
[00:15:43] Speaker A: Yeah. Okay.
[00:15:43] Speaker B: I could never run again in my life and be fine.
[00:15:45] Speaker A: So fair. But I would. I think both things that we're talking about can be true. Like, I do believe.
[00:15:49] Speaker B: But I think there's a little bit of intrinsic interest that needs to be there.
[00:15:54] Speaker A: I would say that if the experience that you had when you started running was more fun and with a bunch of friends and it was a color run or something like that, and you were like, oh, my God, this was great. And someone's like, oh, my God, Amanda, you're awesome.
There might have been a different path for you to running. So I understand your argument.
[00:16:16] Speaker B: I would have been interested in running because I'm running with friends and a color run for fun. But you run for marathons Now.
[00:16:23] Speaker A: Now. Now.
[00:16:24] Speaker B: That's what I'm saying.
Zero.
[00:16:26] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:16:26] Speaker B: I have zero motivation, so I would argue.
[00:16:29] Speaker A: It's the same thing with me and piano. I pretended that I had it, but I have zero motivation.
[00:16:33] Speaker B: Right. That's what I'm saying. I think that your passion still has to be something that you actually are interested in.
[00:16:38] Speaker A: And my only nuances is that I would argue if the right set of circumstances aligns, I think you can find it anywhere. I'm saying I think you can find it anywhere.
[00:16:50] Speaker B: So then are you saying for people who are in their jobs and they are not passionate about their jobs, and there are poo poo and cranky pants.
[00:16:57] Speaker A: Mm.
[00:16:58] Speaker B: You're saying that they could potentially start to grow a passion for their shitty job.
[00:17:05] Speaker A: Yeah. Yes.
[00:17:06] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:17:06] Speaker A: Yes. I. I.
[00:17:07] Speaker B: Go ahead.
[00:17:07] Speaker A: I.
[00:17:08] Speaker B: Yes, Explain.
[00:17:09] Speaker A: Because let's cut the shit. Like running an escargot.
We don't need to talk about Pat. Nobody cares about passion for that because there's no money involved.
[00:17:16] Speaker B: Sure.
[00:17:16] Speaker A: I mean, we want.
We want career advice.
[00:17:20] Speaker B: Okay. Here we go.
[00:17:20] Speaker A: Okay. I'm gonna use me and Gabby. Cause this is all I know. I can't draw from anything else. Vocation. You've heard the word vocation?
[00:17:26] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:17:26] Speaker A: I think Gabby actually found a vocation. Like, stars aligned. I don't think most people have what Gabby had. People don't wake up, be like, oh, my God, I want to be a supply chain analyst. Like, that's the best thing ever.
[00:17:37] Speaker B: Fair. Most people fall into their careers.
[00:17:39] Speaker A: Yes. And. And I would say that's consistent. Absolutely. With almost every study ever done on workplace satisfaction ever. People had to fall into their career, get good at it, before they started realizing, like, okay, I'm on to something. So I'm going to use me as an example for PAC Lab because, you know, I didn't love my job.
[00:17:58] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:17:58] Speaker A: Right. So president of PAC Lab, bunch of skincare products we make for consumer brands. Let's be clear. I do not have a passion, Amanda, for face cream, body cream, body lotion, anything like that. I never got off on, like, Phil race and batch sizes, and trust me, I got dudes at work that do. It's super weird. I don't get it. Kill me now.
[00:18:15] Speaker B: I have a passion for it. It's okay.
[00:18:17] Speaker A: But I'm going to argue your point was inside of that was something I actually love to do.
[00:18:21] Speaker B: But there was people.
[00:18:22] Speaker A: There was people. Yes. And I didn't know this. So for the first 15 years, Amanda, like, this is my whole argument. I didn't know. I would go home at night, I would talk to Gabby, and I'd be like, oh, my God, what am I doing? What am I doing? What am I doing? And Gabby was trying to help me. Not in a selfish way, in a. Yeah, but what about this? Or what about that relationship? Or what about the life you changed? I'm like, what are you talking about? I'm just making shampoo.
And over the years, I realized coaching people and developing teams and more importantly, sitting across someone who's stuck and then helping them, not giving them a solution, but helping them figure out what they're actually capable of, I get off on completely and totally. And I discovered over the years, people appreciated me for that. So that feedback loop, people were like, hey, that was really good advice. Hey, thank you for that. And I was like, oh, my God, that feels good. So I didn't know I was good at it. I was fumbling through it and sort of fucking it up. Didn't know. I mean, I was in my early 30s doing all this. I was lost. I didn't know how to be a president of a company. And little by little by little, I was like, okay, I could park labor analysis, supply chain strategies, customer interactions over here, and I could realize that I love this part. I love this part. And I love being a mentor. And I could say now wholeheartedly, I am passionate about that part of it. I mean, it's why I sit here and do what I'm doing. The podcast is another way. I mean, it's different, but it's a Similar way, I have a microphone. It's a voice I'm trying to coach or teach or whatever in my own weird way. So it's this. I'm using that same skill that I learned over 30 years that I did not know I was good at or had or anything. And I just sort of stuck it out and grinded through it. Does that make sense?
[00:20:00] Speaker B: It does.
[00:20:01] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:20:01] Speaker B: But I think then really what you're saying is, is that you can find your passion in any place, even if you don't know what your passion is. If you're willing to kind of search and see what it is you may be good at.
[00:20:16] Speaker A: Oh, totally.
[00:20:17] Speaker B: And then develop from there and keep
[00:20:19] Speaker A: the right frame of mind. Like, you have to keep the right mental attitude, too. Let's cut the crap.
[00:20:23] Speaker B: You have to have a good mental attitude in order to master something.
[00:20:26] Speaker A: Literally. Amanda, I wish you would have known me when I was younger. Like, I did not like where I worked. It was a means to an end.
[00:20:30] Speaker B: You.
[00:20:31] Speaker A: Gabby wanted to build her career, wanted to have kids, do the whole thing was a very typical, you know, sort of older generation. Put your head down, go to work. And I think Gabby's encouragement for. Should I give her a ton of credit of just not trying to say, you better like it or else. All she was trying to do was reframe things for me. So it was. Maybe you can find it anywhere.
It was just, like, open up a little bit more in her soft way. And that took a long time, and I didn't want to hear it from anybody else. I barely wanted to hear from her. And that's what I'm saying. The journey for passion. People want it to be like, I found it. And I'm calling absolute bullshit on it. There's. There's absolutely no way. No. You need to master something over a really long period of time.
[00:21:15] Speaker B: But don't you think that is maybe why we're having kind of this epidemic of people not knowing? Well, I'm just not in my dream job. I'm just not in this because we've sold kind of a. Maybe a lie to kids.
[00:21:27] Speaker A: Oprah sold a lie of Oprah. Confucius.
[00:21:30] Speaker B: Follow your passion. I like to do toilet paper art.
[00:21:33] Speaker A: Right.
[00:21:33] Speaker B: No, no, no.
[00:21:34] Speaker A: Like, well, that's why I feel bad about. Because that's what I told my kids for so long when they were little. I'm like, oh, just follow your passion. Follow your passion. When you say that to someone, they're confused because they don't know what you're saying, because you know what? You don't know what you're saying because you didn't even define what passion is. That's my argument. But if you said, learn something so it becomes familiar to you, and then if you say, hey, get competent at something and it's going to suck, all of a sudden that's a better definition for passion. I would argue. Here's the deal. If I could break it down a little bit more, here's what I actually think happens. When you get good at something, you master something. The first one that happens is you start to get to make your own decisions. When you get really good at something because nobody's micromanaging you anymore, they're like,
[00:22:12] Speaker B: okay, you can do it.
[00:22:12] Speaker A: Absolutely, yes. You gain autonomy. Okay. I think that's super important.
Second one is you start to matter to other people.
So, like, someone actually needs the thing and it makes you feel important. I understand. That's ego. I get the whole thing. I'm not trying to be an egomaniac,
[00:22:27] Speaker B: but we all need a little bit of.
[00:22:28] Speaker A: A lot of people wanna feel a little, right? Absolutely, yes. And the last one's kind of sneaky. The more that you master something, the more you start to feel competent and it builds on itself. It snowballs. So, like, the better you get, the more interesting and complicated all the problems are that you have to solve. And as a result, you're now working at a level where only those problems exist. And so it's even more interesting to you to solve the problem more complex Rubik's Q problem than the more basic problem. So you're building those muscles so strong that, like, those com. That combination. That's the definition of muscle.
[00:22:58] Speaker B: You get your dopamine hit.
[00:22:59] Speaker A: Yes. And that's the reason people love their job. We just are saying words that are not hitting with people.
[00:23:06] Speaker B: Okay, so I think I heard three different words this time. You had, like, autonomy.
[00:23:09] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:23:10] Speaker B: Impact.
[00:23:10] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:23:11] Speaker B: And then again, I think you used. Competent is a good one to wrap it up.
[00:23:14] Speaker A: That's it.
[00:23:14] Speaker B: So if you have these things in your job, specifically, this is kind of where your passion maybe for your job will come from.
[00:23:20] Speaker A: Correct.
[00:23:21] Speaker B: Like, you're mastering the skills needed in your job, and that is what people come to you for.
[00:23:26] Speaker A: All. All the things. Yes.
[00:23:27] Speaker B: Teach someone else.
[00:23:29] Speaker A: And I think the thing that. I don't know, I'm sort of having my own mental breakdown over here about, like, what I told my kids for so long because I didn't like what I did. I couldn't understand passion. So I would just look at my kids and be like, follow your passion. And then they were like, dad. They didn't say it out loud, but they're like, okay, dad, what does that mean? Quietly? And I was like, oh, just do something you love.
[00:23:46] Speaker B: I mean, like, all of us, I mean, have been through the American school system of some sort, whether private or public or whatever. I think it's all about the same. We take the same courses, you do the same thing. Which I'm not arguing that we shouldn't take those courses and know the basics, but at what point in time do we ever try new things or develop a new muscle to see if it intrigues us enough to go further?
[00:24:08] Speaker A: I know.
[00:24:08] Speaker B: I mean, we used to have wood shop. We used to have home ec. We used to have all these other things where I felt like you got to dabble a little to see if you liked it or not. Now it's like you continue through college and you have to declare, man, because if you go in undeclared, I don't know, it's.
[00:24:21] Speaker A: Dude, don't even get me started. Right?
[00:24:22] Speaker B: Percentage of you don't get accepted undeclared. So everyone just kind of declares something. I'm going to be a me.
[00:24:27] Speaker A: I want to be an Air Force Ranger. Right. Well, that's what, like, all my kids, every one of them did that. And so I'm thinking of. I'll be thinking of Luke. He became an engineer. And if you ask Luke now, why do you become an engineer? He wanted to pick the hardest subject he could do just to see if he could master it.
Is that. Is that smart? Is that passion? No, not really. Right, so now does it mean he shouldn't be an engineer? No. Five years ago, I wouldn't have said that. I would've said, no, just follow your passion. Now I would say, hold on a second. He's mastering something, he's figuring something out. So let's go figure out what gifts you have and how you could be great potentially in that same space and find how to follow your passion there.
[00:25:01] Speaker B: So my advice, I feel like work is an ends mean for maybe something you're passionate about that doesn't generate income.
[00:25:07] Speaker A: No, yeah, absolutely. And I understand that. What I'm arguing is you can have more than one passion. You can find a fair. My point of me being a mentor at work, right? That's a passion at work. And then I have running. That's a. That's a passion. Outside work. I have podcasting. That's about like, yes, you find multiple passions. I'M arguing finding one you monetize going all the way back to the beginning and you'll never work a day in your life. I'm trying to connect that piece together so people feel like there's a. There's some real tangible advice that they could take away. Make sense? Yeah.
[00:25:34] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:25:35] Speaker A: So I talk to my kids now about all this. I've totally shifted this conversation. So now the questions that I ask are not what am I passionate about now? I start with what do actually people pay for?
What problem are you trying to solve that people would pay? Not like doctor or lawyer, not like regular stuff. I mean, what problems exist in the world that someone will hand you money to solve? Because that's what I think gets kids brains wired and starts thinking the right way on how to monetize something. That's a good curiosity question to start with. You remember the guy who I use for my clothes?
[00:26:11] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Personal shopper.
[00:26:13] Speaker A: Yes. He said that to me when I, when I went. I said, why do you do this? And he said, I realized men specifically don't like to go to the mall and buy clothes. They're overwhelmed. But men have the income to buy the clothes and they want the clothes, but they don't want to go do the work. So I specifically got involved in this. I was not passionate about this, but I figured out that there was a need. So, like that. That's what I mean. Something like that. The second question I asked them is,
[00:26:36] Speaker B: but then it gives you purpose. I think part of passion is also a purpose when you feel like you're needed.
[00:26:42] Speaker A: As we talked about. That was one thing. That was one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Perfect. Yeah. See you. You're like, this is great. Okay. The second question I ask my kids is what can you stand to be bad at temporarily? Because it's. You're going to suck. No matter. To start. Like, it doesn't matter. Everybody's. Everybody does. So a piano. Me and piano. Remember I said price of entry too high. I cannot stand to suck at piano. So it's not for me. So there is something you have to slog through to get to the other side and be interested enough. Be bad at enough. The price you pay to master it.
[00:27:07] Speaker B: Intrinsic motivation has to be enough.
[00:27:08] Speaker A: It has to. Absolutely. Then the last question I ask him now is like kind of a weirder one. It's where do you lose track of time?
Like, what thing would you go do for so long? You look up and realize two hours, like absolutely flew by. That is literally your brain telling you, this is Something to think about for me when I'm researching on the podcast episode.
[00:27:27] Speaker B: You can just go.
[00:27:28] Speaker A: Two hours could go by. I don't even know what just happened.
[00:27:30] Speaker B: And I'm like, what's your love of learning?
[00:27:31] Speaker A: Right? It's not the podcast. Bingo. It's my love of just learning. That's it. Yes, exactly.
[00:27:36] Speaker B: Have you actually asked your children these questions?
[00:27:38] Speaker A: Yes, I have. I did. Because I was a bad dad for a long time.
[00:27:42] Speaker B: And one of them that you've had
[00:27:43] Speaker A: this conversation with, unfortunately, I skipped Emma because I was still a bad dad. And just saying, follow your passion. And quite frankly, she found one, which I think is awesome. But I got it. Yes, Paul. I picked Paul.
[00:27:51] Speaker B: Okay, go ahead.
[00:27:52] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:27:52] Speaker B: So walk through. Then the series of. I have to remember this questions and.
[00:27:56] Speaker A: Okay, wait, wait. What was the first question? Now I gotta go.
[00:27:58] Speaker B: Paul interpreted, took it and has applied it.
[00:28:00] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Okay, I'm gonna paraphrase. Cause this is like. This was like four years ago. Okay. I started with, what do people actually pay for? Okay, what did Paul say? I remember Paul. Cause Paul at the time was engineering, math, music.
So don't quote me on it. I will sort of paraphrase. It was people. I like, people need to. Anything that uses numbers to make better decisions, people pay for that.
[00:28:24] Speaker B: Okay. Like an analyst.
[00:28:25] Speaker A: Yes. Like a business. Like, I remember it was around. It was monetization.
[00:28:29] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:28:29] Speaker A: It was about money. And like, they need data.
[00:28:31] Speaker B: Sure.
[00:28:32] Speaker A: People don't have access to data. People have a gut. But if they could marry the data and the gut together, that would be meaningful. I think that was Paul's sort of first answer. I remember. And he also said music, because he loves music. But he was. Was and is still freaked out that you can't make money making music because it's tougher to do. But I would say that was. Answer. Answer 1. What was the second question? What can you stand being bad at? Right. Okay. Playing music in front of people doesn't care. Absolutely. He would slog through it until he gets better at it. And he absolutely has it. Totally could get over it. No. When Paul started doing this, I remember, like, he would especially singing, right? Cause he could play all the instruments, like, no problem. But singing, oh, my God, it was rough and no problem. He was just like, I know I'm not so good at it, but here I'm doing it little by little by little by little. So anyway.
[00:29:16] Speaker B: All right, Good on him.
[00:29:16] Speaker A: Yeah, I know. Totally.
[00:29:18] Speaker B: So that's the same thing that he loses track of time on.
[00:29:20] Speaker A: Yes. Lose Track time. Yes. Messing around with me. Oh, to this day, the kid will go in the garage. I will go to bed at like, whatever, 10 o' clock at night, 11 o' clock at night. He'll give me a kiss good night. Be like, I'm going to be in the garage. All his music's in the garage, all his instruments. Two o' clock in the morning. Three o' clock in the morning. I hear him coming upstairs. Hours. Not even two hours. Hours and hours. Just, like, figuring it out. So ask me now what Paul's going to do with his life.
[00:29:41] Speaker B: What is Paul gonna do now?
[00:29:42] Speaker A: Yeah. I don't know. So.
[00:29:43] Speaker B: Oh, no.
[00:29:44] Speaker A: Actuarial science. So graduated with math. So he's gonna be an actuary. Took the first test, he's the second test. So that's one piece. And two, he absolutely is still 100% committed to being a musician. So not changing course. And two different things, two totally different ideas, and he's just sort of following along. So good. Good on him.
[00:30:02] Speaker B: I feel like his brain is. What was it? Undeniacal. What is it?
[00:30:06] Speaker A: Oh, my God. Oh, in. In. What is it? In a seminal. I don't remember the word. Immisc. No, my God, what's the word?
[00:30:12] Speaker B: Animal.
So his brain's kind of like inimical within itself. Two enemies fighting each other or something. They're two very different things, but yet seemingly good fighting with each other.
All of these numbers, right? In mathematics, and I know people would argue, like, music uses the same part of the math side, right?
[00:30:31] Speaker A: But no, they used it. Dude, that guy, that kid's brain. Totally. You know. You know who else's is, if anybody's listening? Amanda's. Same. Same. Oh, totally. What are you talking about? You were a math major, but then everything else you do is artistic and art related. You are split in half. Probably why you like Paul so much. Great minds. That's what it is. Who would have known? Probably why you hate me so much. That's probably why. What? We're unnimical. That's why. Yeah, that's a problem right there. Okay, what are you going to do?
[00:30:57] Speaker B: Okay, what about people who have natural gifts, right? Like Beethoven, music.
[00:31:00] Speaker A: I knew you were going there.
[00:31:01] Speaker B: Super.
[00:31:01] Speaker A: I was ready for this.
[00:31:02] Speaker B: But like, just inherently naturally gifted, all of these athletes.
[00:31:06] Speaker A: Yeah, I know. Tom Brady, LeBron James.
[00:31:08] Speaker B: So, like, you can find your passion with something you're naturally gifted at.
[00:31:11] Speaker A: Sort of.
[00:31:12] Speaker B: Sort of.
[00:31:13] Speaker A: Here's what I'm going to say.
Let me argue it. Let me just go.
[00:31:16] Speaker B: You're just I'm feeling attacked.
[00:31:18] Speaker A: I'm feeling attacked. Okay.
Society has somehow taught us to blur three very different things together. But we treat them like they're the same. Okay, okay. Talent, like you just said, interest and passion. Okay, Totally different things. We blur them all together and say, tom Brady's the best because. Oh, everything.
[00:31:40] Speaker B: So you're saying is I could be good at something, but I may not have interest in it and it may not be passionate because.
[00:31:44] Speaker A: Right, okay. Talent, you're good at. Interest, you are curious about it. Passion is what you care enough if my definition is true to stick it out. Gotta get through the hard shit.
[00:31:55] Speaker B: So then would you argue you shouldn't create a passion out of your talent?
[00:31:59] Speaker A: No, no, no, I'm not arguing that because there are very few people that can do that. Fine. Good on you. It's like winning the lottery. Totally good. Here's the deal, okay? How many things were you good at at some point in your life that you don't care about anymore? Just to answer that question, how about that school subject? Maybe anything.
Math, writing. Let's do math. You're a math major.
[00:32:14] Speaker B: Let's just do math.
[00:32:15] Speaker A: Okay, you're great at math. You were great at math. Do you sit around and do algebra problems for fun?
[00:32:18] Speaker B: Well, not algebra problems.
[00:32:20] Speaker A: Do you sit around and solve problems?
[00:32:22] Speaker B: I do budgets for people.
[00:32:23] Speaker A: That's.
[00:32:23] Speaker B: Okay, maybe not a great.
[00:32:24] Speaker A: I'm arguing you lost interest in math.
[00:32:26] Speaker B: No.
[00:32:26] Speaker A: What are you arguing?
[00:32:27] Speaker B: I mean, I like it enough that I'm in finance.
[00:32:29] Speaker A: Okay, fine. Give me something else.
[00:32:30] Speaker B: I don't know.
[00:32:32] Speaker A: You've had a thousand of these hobbies.
[00:32:33] Speaker B: There's something, I guess, maybe like. No, I mean gymnastics or like a sport of some sort that I was probably involved in.
[00:32:38] Speaker A: Now you're not. Bingo. Okay, got it. Now I'm gonna flip it.
[00:32:41] Speaker B: Now, I would argue, though, that I wasn't naturally talented at any.
[00:32:43] Speaker A: That's fine. That's fine. That's fine.
[00:32:44] Speaker B: That's fine.
[00:32:45] Speaker A: Okay. I was just saying you were good at it. Now think about something you hated at first and then liked. So for me, running, working out, cooking. Okay. Do you have something that you.
[00:32:53] Speaker B: That I hate? No, I am like, hate adverse. If I don't like doing something, I'm very stubborn and don't want to do it.
[00:32:57] Speaker A: So you never flipped?
[00:32:59] Speaker B: I don't know if I have.
[00:33:00] Speaker A: You're a bad. You're bad business case for me to prove this out. Here's the problem. So you know how there's, like, Tom Brady and Beethoven.
[00:33:05] Speaker B: Okay. Yeah.
[00:33:06] Speaker A: Over here I'm arguing you're on the opposite side. You have no talent and hate everything. You're the opposite of Tom Rainbow. You're the worst. Wow. You are the worst case to argue this with. This is terrible.
[00:33:16] Speaker B: I guess I would just argue if you had natural talent, you would lean into that because people recognize it quickly.
[00:33:21] Speaker A: You are right.
[00:33:21] Speaker B: You get the feedback that you're needing.
[00:33:23] Speaker A: Yeah. No, no, no, no, no.
[00:33:24] Speaker B: You practice more, you get better.
[00:33:25] Speaker A: I am saying that Beethoven got a head start, Mozart got a head start. It happens. But I am arguing those people won the lottery to find the talent that they are passionate about. I'm saying 99.8% of people don't have those three things come together. So innate talent, I'm arguing, happens. It's true. But that's why they get famous. There's 8 billion people in the world. 8 billion.
[00:33:50] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:33:51] Speaker A: You're seeing the famous ones. You are seeing the 0.00000001. You get, you get what?
[00:33:55] Speaker B: I so don't compare yourself to them.
[00:33:56] Speaker A: No, you can't at all. And that's what we do because we sensationalize all of these people. And I'm arguing.
[00:34:02] Speaker B: But then I think that goes back to society as pushing this false kind of pretense about passion where it's not just something that you're naturally good at, something that you're naturally going to be excited about, but you have to put in the work and you have to like, you have to flog through it in order to get to the point where you are enjoying it and you've be kind of mastered it a little bit and now you're self motivated to keep going because you have kind of reached that crescendo.
[00:34:27] Speaker A: Talent is the multiplier that like that's the best way to explain it. You have to have the interest, you have to do the work. It's just that Tom Brady, he was able to multiply times 10 really fast. We weren't. I had to work a lot harder at it. And this is the problem with parenting now. I think you brought it up earlier. This is a problem where parents, I think you said something like we don't explore. Kids nowadays don't explore enough different avenues to find something that they're good at. Yeah, right.
[00:34:50] Speaker B: Or interested enough.
[00:34:51] Speaker A: I'm arguing, I'm arguing. Parents, parents start kids at a very young age on one sport because they want them to master this at three years old, four years old. You have to learn this, right? Oh my God. Or else.
[00:35:01] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:35:01] Speaker A: And, and As a result, what. What are we doing? The parents are living vicariously through their kids, whatever that word is, you know what I mean? And it's terrible. A 99 out of 100 cases, what happens? Kid goes through high school, finishes their sport or whatever thing they're good at, and then says, I'm burned out. I don't want to do this anymore. And now is moving into college and going like, I don't even know what's happening. And mom and dad are pissed off. The very few that are able to use the talent multiplier win. The very few. That's the sad game that's being played. That's why I'm arguing so vehemently against passion.
[00:35:28] Speaker B: I think it's kind of twofolded, though, because parents do sign their kids up to do a bunch of different sports, right? And either naturally the kid's good at it and they continue and want to continue at it, or mom and dad are more passionate about it, so they keep their kid in it and try to push them. Though I will also say the converse is true, is that a lot of times parents are like, oh, you don't like it? Okay, you don't have to do it again next season versus maybe committed to this. You need to go, you need to keep trying. Maybe you're good at it. We don't know. You're just starting. It's brand new to you. But I think that falls in a lot of things, especially in our society of, well, you gotta love what you're doing. And if you don't love what you're doing, then just stop.
[00:36:01] Speaker A: If there's one parenting thing I've ever done my whole life, really good at, the only thing is balance. Because you're arguing balance. You're arguing, don't tip the scale too far to one side or the other. Because if you can offer your child perspective on being balanced, they will find things that they get good at, and they will be able to have the time and energy to explore things, to figure out they're not good at. And that's good.
[00:36:23] Speaker B: And that's okay. It's okay. If you decide that you cannot go
[00:36:26] Speaker A: too far to one end or the other.
[00:36:28] Speaker B: Well, because then you're like, well, I've been doing this for eight years. I got to just continue, right? Here we are.
[00:36:32] Speaker A: And then you wonder why we have a mental health crisis. No, it's bullshit. So I think balance is the key. And I love. God, I'm going to say this. I love that my kids have figured that out. At a young age for as much as it didn't fit the system. And, like, I can't keep up with this person or that's not happening, or they're doing better than me. I love balance. I know we're not. I mean, we're talking about passion, but I'd argue balance. We could probably have a whole conversation about balance. I love it.
[00:36:53] Speaker B: Okay, well then are there any fun facts about passion? Because I feel like as we're talking about this.
[00:36:58] Speaker A: Yeah. Who wrote the song Passion?
Rod Stewart. Yes.
[00:37:01] Speaker B: You said this earlier alone about, oh, you suck.
[00:37:04] Speaker A: There's probably. There's probably a lot of songs.
[00:37:07] Speaker B: There has to be besides, like, fun facts like that. But there has to be something about how. I don't know, like, if you stuck with it, like this person wasn't passionate about something and then they stuck with it and now they were the number one triathlete. I don't know.
[00:37:19] Speaker A: Underwater basket weaver.
[00:37:20] Speaker B: Sure.
[00:37:20] Speaker A: Yes, whatever. Yes. I got some. I got fun facts.
[00:37:23] Speaker B: Okay? You always do.
[00:37:24] Speaker A: I don't think I have a fun fact like you just said, but. Oh, well, we can make one up. Nobody will know.
[00:37:27] Speaker B: Okay, great. Nobody will know. Nobody.
[00:37:29] Speaker A: Hey, you know what? Just so long as we're passionate about it, they'll believe us.
[00:37:32] Speaker B: I mean, there. What does that say? There is another saying where it's like, if you're passionate enough about something, people will take it, like, with authority.
[00:37:37] Speaker A: That's storytelling. That's how I live my life.
Jesus. Okay, here we go. All right, number one. So there's this researcher named Cal Newport who spent his whole life learning all about passion, this whole concept. And he figured out through his research, the whole idea of follow your passion was not part of the advice that people who actually found their passion were given. In other words, if you don't tell people, just follow their passion, they. They actually have a better chance of finding their passion. That's the reason why I changed my course with my kids, like, so long ago. Yeah, he wrote a book about it called so Good They Can't Ignore youe, which is probably the least, like, self helpy self help book title ever in the history of the planet.
[00:38:08] Speaker B: Here we are.
[00:38:09] Speaker A: Okay, if that made sense. Number two, there's a psychological phenomenon called the end of history illusion. Researchers at Harvard found that people consistently underestimate how much they'll change in the future. Oh, we were talking about quiet grief of becoming someone else. Remember we were talking about that whole weird thing. Yeah. You think you'll be the same person you are later, but data Suggests you'll change more in the next 10 years than you think you will. Which means the passion you're actually looking for right now, you might not even be the person yet that will have the passion that you're looking for. I know that was a total mind screw, but you get what I'm getting at. Yes, that's real shit right there.
[00:38:44] Speaker B: We are developing individuals.
[00:38:45] Speaker A: Yes, absolutely. Okay, number three, professional athletes we were talking about, Tom Brady almost universally describe hating practice, not disliking hating.
[00:38:55] Speaker B: I think pretty sure it was Allen Iverson who was like, practice, practice.
[00:39:00] Speaker A: Who needs practice? Right. Most of them will tell you they love the sport more than anything in the world.
Both things can be true simultaneously, which kind of kills the idea that passion means it always has to feel good. Right. Think of me. I sit here, I bitch all day long about when I do the editing on this podcast. What do I tell you all the time? Kill me now on editing on this podcast. I hate it. But then I just told you I could get lost for four hours on researching something.
[00:39:25] Speaker B: Doesn't always feel good.
[00:39:26] Speaker A: No, it doesn't always feel good. Number four, there's a Japanese concept. I think we talked about it before. Ikigai, roughly translated, means reason for being. It gets referenced, like, all the time. You find it on TikToks and when you're doing the doom scrolling. Except here's the thing. The version most Westerners know, the four overlapping circle diagrams that show up on every LinkedIn post was invented by a Western author in 2014. The actual Japanese concept of icky guy has almost nothing to do with career or passion. It just means small things that make you glad to be alive, like having your morning coffee or taking your dog on a walk, or just having a good conversation with a friend on a podcast microphone. The version that we exported and branded on LinkedIn is entirely not true.
[00:40:09] Speaker B: Sounds about right.
[00:40:10] Speaker A: Totally made up. Here we are.
[00:40:11] Speaker B: Sounds all right. Somebody capitalized on it.
[00:40:12] Speaker A: They did some American. And finally, a 2023 survey found that Gen Z lists finding their passion as one of their top three sources of anxiety.
[00:40:22] Speaker B: I mean, I can see why it gives some anxiety.
[00:40:24] Speaker A: Yeah. Not finding a job, not paying rent, finding their passion.
[00:40:27] Speaker B: Well, because if they found their passion, they would be able to have all
[00:40:29] Speaker A: the rest of the other things. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right, Right. So I just think that I'm so happy that I changed my way of helping. Not that I'm this guru, but the whole point of why this episode came up in the first place was because I realized I was Feeding into the system that was making my kids anxious, and now I've sort of given them permission that, like, they can figure out how to get there. And we're just on the journey together. So that's all I got for my fun facts. Fun facts out.
[00:40:58] Speaker B: Well, somebody else wants to learn a little bit more about passion and what you've been talking about. Where could they look?
[00:41:02] Speaker A: Okay. Yeah. First, everybody, if you want the fun facts, or if you like the synopsis of the show, DM us on Instagram. We'll send them to your inbox right away. Thank you for supporting the show. Okay. Three things they should be doing. One, first, read so good they can't ignore you. The thing I talked about earlier by Cal Newport. Yes. It's not long. You can read in a weekend. Super important. Second, there's a TED Talk by psychotic. TED talks are odd. Do you listen?
[00:41:24] Speaker B: I love.
[00:41:24] Speaker A: I love Touch. Yeah. Yeah, this one's long. Her name's Angela Duckworth. It's called Grit. The power of passion and perseverance. It's like 20 minutes. So it's, like, long for a TED Talk, but, like, it's not that long.
[00:41:33] Speaker B: One and a half times speed. Let's go.
[00:41:35] Speaker A: It's on YouTube. Find it. And then, if you want to get really serious, here's what I would do. Sit down. Make a list of all the things you got good at over the years.
Figure out when it started and how it started, because that's where you'll start to figure out if you can make adjustments or what you should do to go forward. People don't spend enough time doing those kinds of things. I did that exercise. It was mind blowing. Highly recommended. And if you don't want to do any of those things, then just remember these details about passion to seem sort of sophisticated. First, passion isn't something you discover. It's something you build, usually by accident. That's my argument. Usually right after the point. Most people quit. That's why we're never giving up on this podcast, Amanda. Second, what we call passion is almost always familiarity plus competence plus early success stacked on top of each other. You don't fall in love with things you don't understand. You fall in love with things you've stayed with long enough to get. That's my whole premise. Third, talent is a multiplier, not a substitute. Being naturally good at something doesn't make you care about it. And being bad at something doesn't mean you can't eventually love it. You still have to put the time in either way. Do not compare yourself to folks that had that talent multiplier, that insane ability to put it all together. Too small of a. Of a pool. Fourth, the right question is not what am I passionate about? The right question is, what can I tolerate long enough to get good at? Pick something you don't hate, show up and stay until it feels like yours. And finally, the word passion literally comes from the Latin word meaning suffering.
Don't forget that you must suffer for your soup. Have you seen Seinfeld? Seinfeld? No. Oh, my God. The Soup Nazi. I think that's the greatest of all time. I suffer for my soup. There you go. That's all I got.
[00:43:12] Speaker B: Well, there you have it. Dear listeners, we came in today not knowing if Pete was off his rocker and if we all agreed or not. But I think we can all agree that passion is something that you find and something that you have to work at to get good at. Sometimes it's by accident, and sometimes it's maybe something you didn't even think you liked that much, but here we are.
[00:43:28] Speaker A: Escargot, baby. Escargot.
[00:43:30] Speaker B: There you go. So if we did our job today, we're walking away with a little less pressure. Not so much go find your thing, but more like just pick something, stay at it for a while, get slightly less bad at it, and maybe just let the rest kind of work itself out as always. Hit subscribe Leave us a Review Share with a friend who's been figuring out what they want to do for the last, like, gazillion years and maybe just needs someone to whisper in their ear. It's okay. Just pick something and stick. Start. Until next time. Stay curious, stay relentless in your pursuit, and remember the things you love most. You probably didn't love them at first.
