Episode Transcript
Welcome back devoted listeners to sort of sophisticated. Can we just call it SOS please from now on because sort of sophisticated is really hard for me to say because I have a lisp. All of a sudden you have a lisp, huh? I do. I just developed a lisp for sort of sophisticated. But SOS means help. Well, we're helping people, but really, really, we're we're all becoming more cultured and curious. I think together. I think that's the whole point. Um, I'm Peter. Hi. And this is Amanda, the best co host ever. Um, and we're back to talk about stuff that really might not matter, but kind of matters kind of matters. I think this topic is pretty important. What, um, what is our topic? Do we know our topic today? Yeah. What's the topic today? How did we choose a Pope? Oh my God. How do we choose a Pope? Yes. And do you know why it's important? Why is it important? Because there is a thing right now that's going viral on how in the Vatican. A thing? A thing, a TikTok is going viral. What? And in the Vatican there is only a spot for one more Pope. Wait, what do you mean a spot for? What are you talking about? So in the Vatican they have all the pictures of all the Pope. Oh. Like on the wall or something. And like they have one spot left. Only one spot left. And I have no idea what that means. It's just the downfall of the Catholic church. I'm going to hell. Hold on. In the name of the Father and the son, the Holy Spirit. Amen. Okay. Um. Actually, they say it's because it's the end times. Okay, first of all, um, there is no way this is going to be The Last Pope. That's wild. And second of all, I think we said we're doing this episode, uh, if you remember it was because of Conclave. The movie just came out. I guess it just goes hand in hand then. Let's go. Maybe that's why it's going viral, because of Conclave. It started the conversation. That, that, it reminds me of, um, what is it, the year 2000? Like when we had all the problems, like, oh, Y2K? Y2K, yes. Everything was going to go down. Okay, I have a, I have a trivia. Fun fact. Okay, go. Um, besides, the internet, and the whole problem with, like, Y2K, what was the other thing that people were, like, super panicked about? A very specific group of people. I don't know. Gravestones. What? Yes. So. Like, people that had already etched, whatever it was, born in 1939, died in 19, and they left the other part blank because they already bought their gravestone, they now had to go back and change all of those, and they had to repay for new gravestones. It was, it was insane. Yes, so random the gravestone maker people made millions and millions of dollars. Okay, whatever But I didn't I haven't done it I know some people some people get like they're set well in advance and I by the way I highly suggest you at least get your affairs in order mildly organized. You know, what you should do get sort of get sort of Okay, so Conclave. Let's go. Did you see it? I saw it. Did you see it? I did not. Oh, you got to go see it. Very proud of you for being so pop cultured. Yes. Yes. So was it good? It was good. It was good good. It was like, it was Hollywood good. Like for the most part, they added a bunch of stuff because who wants to watch a boring process of like popes, but they, um, but they like stayed true to the process for the most part. So like as far as pop culture goes, like 8 out of 10, like they nailed it. And then of course, you know, Hollywood has to go over the top But was it a good scandal? It was over the top scandal. Like, I don't believe that that's actually what goes on. The crap we're gonna learn right now, you're gonna freak out at some of the stuff. Like, this is, like, There's a bad and sordid history. Really? Yes. That's shocking. Oh, no, no, no. Yeah, this is bad. Did you know all this because you were already Catholic? Or did you learn this stuff? No, so I knew some of it. And, um, yeah, so it's hard, right? Because you want to believe in all the goodness and, like, that this is a very sacred thing. Um, but, uh, it's, it's full of scandal. I mean, this goes all the way back to, uh, Jesus Christ, right? Peter, the first apostle, the first pope, and then, I don't know, 260 popes later. That's so awful, I didn't know Peter was the first pope. Peter was the first apostle. The first pope. Yeah. So, a lot of scandal. But I'm going to go with, um, I'm sticking to the sacred part and, uh, I'm going to do my best as a Catholic and a comedian to try to bring this all together somehow. You're going to keep it light hearted? And not go to hell. Fair. Yeah, that's my job. But how does learning about the Pope make us more cultured and curious? I mean, it's definitely made me curious, right? The whole conclave premise and all about it has definitely made me curious and I guess cultured. Um, tradition, I think, I think let's start with tradition. I think that's. That's one huge reason right learning about tradition and how you pick your Pope we talked about history So it goes all the way back to Jesus. There's a component here. The Pope's not just a religious figure like Cut the crap. He's a global political figure so like I've ever thought of him as no political figure. Oh, oh, we're oh We're gonna go there. This is gonna be fun then. Okay, good I don't know. We didn't we just say last episode and keep politics out of it It's in it, but this is history this isn't like current. I'm not going like Pope Francis right now. You know what I mean? I'm going like, I'm going back, back. Back in the day. Yeah. Because the Vatican was all over international relations. And like being able to talk about international relations and like world affairs and stuff like that. Makes us more globally, politically, sophisticated ish. I'm going to say, I feel like as an American that we're not super globally up on the politics. So, I think this is a good one. It is going to be good. Um, but we have to do our word of the day first. Oh yes. Yes, totally. Is it like crucifix? Um, that would be a good one. Wouldn't it? I mean, that'd be cheating. That would be, right. That's not even that exciting. Okay. Alright, should we use hijab? Hijab would be hard. That would be super hard. Crucifix and hijab and you have to do it in the same sentence. Oh my gosh. Okay. That's, well, I don't know. No, all fine. Alright. No, no, don't worry. Can you have word mission? I have, I have a real one. Don't worry. Okay. I got one locked in, loaded here. It's, bilious. Is that like bulbus? But bulbus I like bulb instead of, instead of, of. Bulbous, it's bilious. Actually, you're going to like bilious. Bilious means angry or bad tempered. And there's another definition. Unpleasant to look at. kind of like your face is bilious. Yeah. And also a bukula. A bukula? Yeah. Oh my god, you remember? You just double chinned me. I double chinned you and, um, I'm bilious and is buculus And unpleasant to look at. Yes. Okay, alright, so, um, figure it out. You gotta like, get it in there somewhere. Jam it, jam it in, okay? Alright, I'll stick it in there, but thank you. Before we stick it in anything, can you gimme a quick refresher on Catholicism so I can make sure I'm up to speed. 'cause as we already noted, I am probably behind, I don't even know if I'm, am I worthy of this? Like, is there, am I gonna be smed? If I like give up history of Catholicism, I think I need like a deacon or something in the room right now. You got like 50 plus years, right? So you're fine. Rip through the basics. I'm ripping right now. Okay, let's go. Cheat sheet. Ready? Is there a hierarchy? There is. We got the Pope. That's it. I was just gonna do a hierarchy. So you got the Pope. He's in charge. It all started with Peter. Now we're at Pope Francis. He's on the top. Um, and the Pope is like the CEO of the church. he is the spiritual leader of, like, a billion Catholic people. So, is he going to make all the choices? He does. Wow. He's in charge. Okay. Large and in charge. Okay. Below him, you got cardinals. Like the birds? Yes! Like the birds, except they're not birds at all. They wear red, and they're just a bunch of men that walk around in these big robes. So, what came first? The cardinals? The cardinals of the Catholics, or the cardinal of the birds? The Cardinals came like, like back with creation, you know what I mean? The Cardinals were on Noah's Ark. So I mean like, come on, at least two Cardinals? Didn't they just fly all the time? By the way, we gotta figure that out because I always thought about that. What is going on with all of the birds in Noah's Ark? You, they didn't like all like sit in cages. They were all just out. And there weren't just two of them. There were probably millions of them. How did they like only Oh no. The whole bird? I've never thought of that. The bird thing and the fish thing? Throw me off completely. Shit, everything else makes total sense to me. Shit. Yes. I'm very confused. I have never thought about the fish. Okay. This is not Catholicism. I gotta go faster. Okay, so the Cardinals are below Pope and, there's like 200 Cardinals and they're like the board of directors. Okay. Oh, they're like our Senate. Right? Okay. You got like president and then you got Senate. Okay, that's them. They're the guys that elect a pope, number one, first most important job. And then they run the archdiocese. Right? The what? The archdiocese. They're like Catholic districts. Just think of a city. So is there an archdiocese of LA? Yes. Is there one of Orange County? There is a Diocese of Orange, there's an Archdiocese of L. A., and then the Diocese is lower. Yes. So, it's totally the same as like countries, states, cities, counties, like it's the same concept, it's just all, they just have different names. Regional. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Uh, and I'm not gonna go super far into like the whole Catholic org chart here, but then you have like archbishops, then bishops, and then priests, and of course deacons are even lower, but anyway, all like leaders at like a more local level, like on their way down, like in each area, so then like when you go to my church, you have a priest, technically the priest reports to a bishop, The bishop then would report to a cardinal, and the cardinal would then report to the pope. Do any of them report to God? Uh, so yes, they all directly, they all have a dotted line, report to God. Okay. Yes, okay, so basically, does this all make sense? Like, are you sort of on track with hierarchy of Catholicism? I gave you enough background to know how we're gonna, like, start talking about Pope? Yeah, but I do have one more question. What? What, what, what? Do you guys have a voting system? Is everyone just super old? Or, how does that work? And also, how does Conclave tie in with the whole thing? Oh my god. Okay. Okay. Good point. Good point. Okay. So we're going to do this in about two seconds. But basically, all the Cardinals vote. Like when a Pope dies, all the Cardinals vote. Right? Um, but yes, they are totally old, but they have a rule because only Cardinals under the age of 80 can vote because somehow, like if you're over 80, you either, can't see anymore or, um, don't have enough faculty. I'm not really sure what that rule is all about. We're only sort of sophisticated. Sorry. Alright, well, I think that's enough to get us going. Okay, good. And if we're not already going to hell. We, uh, we probably are going to hell. Well, I'm going to, I'm going to Miklon, if you remember. I'm going to Cream of Wheat, right? And you're probably going to visit Gabi. I forgot what the butterfly place was, but it was really cool. So, you mentioned when the Pope dies. So Pope dies or in rare cases resigns. If you remember Pope Benedict, the 16th. Dude totally pulled off the like massive upset of all time. Nobody saw coming 2013. He resigned. I don't even know if that ever happened before in the history of Popes, but anyway, Oh, well, they had to pick a new one. So 99 percent of the time Pope dies. 1 percent of the time, if your name is Pope Benedict the 16th, you decide to resign because you're cool and you're like, I'm not doing this anymore, so then what happens is all the cardinals, all the dudes dressed in red, there's like 200 worldwide. They literally come back to Vatican, like they are summoned back to Vatican. I don't even know how, they must like light fires or something from all over the world. I feel like this is very Lord of the Rings status. It's very Lord of the Rings status. It totally reminds me of, uh, Lord of the Rings Return of the King when Pippin lights those, like, big beacons to alert Gondor that Rohan was being invaded. It was, like, my favorite part. See, you just always nerd out. Well, because it's Lord of the Rings. I'm a Lord of the Rings nerd, right? So they had those lights, those fires, like, from each city. They did, yeah. Okay, alright, that doesn't really happen. It's like, what happens now is, they just get one massive group text, I think, that just says, Get your ass to the Sistine Chapel, like, STAT. Lock the doors, and we are gonna get some shit done, and we're gonna vote, like, right now. So, basically, that's sort of how it all starts. They just, like, flock there. And once they're all together, that is when it's officially called a conclave. From the Latin phrase, uh, I had to look this up, conclavus, which translates to, with a key. And thus, what the movie is named after. That is it! Absolutely yes. I love it. But it sounds so secretive. The Conclave. It is secretive. Check this. They're not even let out until they've decided on a next pope. Like, they are locked in secret. Doesn't even matter how long it takes. But they have restrooms and stuff inside. Do they? This is the Sistine Chapel. Hmm. Does it not? Funny you say that. So I had to look that up. So they have to bring in restrooms right by the Sistine Chapel. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So how do you like that? Temporary restroom set up right outside only for Cardinals. No unholy butts on the toilet seats. They eat, they sleep there. Well, not like in the Sistine Chapel or anything, but like right next door in this place called Domus Sanctae Marte. That's my Latin. That's all I got. It's called casa Santa Marta in Italian. It's like right next door to like the Sistine Chapel. All I'm trying to say is that they're cut off from all outside communication during this process. Poo and pee, fine. Food. Yes. No phones, no newspapers, no internet, no porn. Just pick a Pope. That's it. Um, I feel real bad. Why? Because they can't look at porn? Yeah, that too. They totally do. I mean, they have to, no? I don't know. I hope not in the system chapter. Again, I'm going to NO! That would be bad. Sacrilegious right there. I wonder if that's ever been done. I want to go do that. Oh dear. When I was in the Sistine Chapel, I didn't even recognize this Casa Santa Marta. Yeah, it's like right next door. No. Nobody pointed that out. Because that's not a good place. Like, that's not where people go, right? But it's kind of important. So, technically, the whole, like, selection process, okay, here's where we get scandalous, right? It's supposed to be guided by the Holy Spirit. The idea is the cardinals, through, I would argue, prayer. and reflection, maybe a little meditation, Amanda, would choose the man that God wants to lead the church on Earth. That's the program, right? That's the sacred part that should matter. Um, two third majority, and basically what happens if two thirds agree? White smoke goes up the chimney, St. Peter's Square erupts in cheers. If not, black smoke goes up the chimney, and we keep going round and round until they get a majority. Sounds, like, pretty chill, right? Yeah, sounds too easy. Okay, so this is where we got a little nuts, because I googled this shit for like five minutes and you could quickly figure out that, the history of conclaves, yeah, like the history of with a key, it's got some dirty dealings. Serious shit. Okay? It's way more political. And, uh, I almost had a heart attack. Really? Yeah. Here we go. We're gonna go. Let's go. You ready? I don't know if I'm ready, but go. This is where it gets fun. Okay. So, the problem, of course, is that, um, Cardinals are men with penises, so they have their own agendas. Right? Yes. Let's, let's call it what it is. We're all human. And we're only being sort of sophisticated, so don't get mad at me here, people. We're gonna make this easy and say there are two camps, conservatives and reformers. There's a few more, but those are like the basic big two. And the conservatives are absolutely, like, hell bent on preserving. Tradition in the church, right? So letting the old men rule. Okay. Perfect. Yes, absolutely. And then of course you have reformers. They're trying to push for modernization. Thank God. Oh, sorry. I guess everyone now knows I'm a reformer Oops Okay, but like I mean they're trying to address real stuff like the role of women in the church like LGBTQ plus issues like speaking out about all the scandals like all our sexual abuse stuff financial corruption stuff like right, right Right. I think we're all should be reformers at this point. Let's go coach. Let's go right where you want to go the cardinal school There's a cardinal school. There's dude Stanford Stanford Cardinal. There's totally let's what let's go to stay Stanford University No, they're a cardinal. They're a tree, but it would It's the tree but it would be funny if they were the actual Cardinals, okay. All right. Sorry So like none of this is really new or anything So this goes all the way back to the Middle Ages like Popes were picked based on who everybody thought would be best at keeping stability in Europe You And who would like buddy up to all the rich families. Cause like back then, right, nobody cared about America. This was all just Europe. Cause everything started in Europe. So back then it wasn't just about spiritual leadership. Like the Pope was actually like a king. Just without a country. Well, it's a small country. Did you know Vatican is a country? No, I didn't. Yes, it's a teeny little country. Is it really? Yes, absolutely. What? Yeah, I know. Okay, anyway. Okay, so, and if, like, this pope or king was any good, then he basically controlled most of Europe. And, um, when you control Europe, let's say you get tempted to take over the world. Of course, the devil. Because the devil is The devil is in us all. I guess so. Yes. Some more than others. It's true. Let's be honest. So, Popes are just power hungry maniacs? Um. Kinda? Yeah. Okay. Um. But who's the worst? What? What do you mean, the worst? Like, give me an example of one of the worst Popes to reign the Middle Ages. Oh, shit, yeah. Because really, like, all the kings and everything, they look to the Pope, right? Okay. Like, I don't know, that's what I learned in Bridgerton, so. Let's, the, you're absolutely right. This is the whole point. Ready? Are you ready? I looked this up. Okay. Okay. The worst, I'm gonna just say it. I I don't even know. 'cause there wa like when I Googled it, there was some pretty bad ones, but I picked one, Pope John the 12th. He ran from 9 55 to 9 64. So like, what is that? Uh, 1100 years ago? Yeah. I don't know Ma Mannos. Okay. First of all, he was only 18 years old when he was elected Pope 18. And then he died at 27. No, no, no, no, no, no. He was, no, he was Pope from 1955 to 1964. Yeah. But I thought they'd die. I don't know, I have to look that up. Google that. Google that, Google that. Okay. So, the only reason he was picked as Pope is because he backed one of the, like, richest families in Rome at the time. Like, he, the name, he did? He died. He died. He died. He was probably murdered. Okay. So, he backed this family called the Tuscalonies. Right? That sounds so mafia, mafioso, the Tuscalonies. Do you want to know how he died? How did he die? A stroke while committing adultery. Yes! Oh my god, this is excellent. Ready? Okay, here we go. This is why he's the worst! You're getting ahead, you're getting ahead. Okay, check this out. So first he turned the Pope's house into a giant rave, okay? Well, isn't that his house? What do you mean his house? What do you mean his house? You said the Pope's house. Wouldn't that be like his house? Oh my god, yes, totally. Yes, the whole Vatican. Yes, he turned the whole thing into a rave. Wait, he told a rave in the Vatican? Like a rave. Put up a bunch of mirrors, red beads and shit and started like using the church to fund. Yes, like, oh, absolutely. I don't know if the red, I made that part up, but you get the idea. Okay, like gambling, drinking, drugs, like all the stuff that's not supposed to be there. And there's evidence, I'm not sure how, There's evidence because like we had no cell phones to record or anything back then, but that he would even toast to pagan gods. Like, not even God God, just Pagan Gods, and invoke them to intervene, because, he was nervous that the real God was gonna kill him, so he was like, Yeah, hey, Pagan Gods, help me, like, with the real God? This was the Pope. Why did they pick him? I don't know, cause he was rich, and the Tuscalonies wanted to rule all of Europe. Okay, so, Him, though. Okay, so wait, there's, there's way more than this. Okay, are you ready? I'm ready. Like, like murder. What? Yeah, like he murdered people. Like he murdered people? Yes, he murdered people. Yes. How did he murder people? Yeah, so good old John XII was known to order mutilations and executions of people that spoke out against him, including Amanda, some of his own cardinals. If they didn't agree with him on the regular. That's crazy shit. I'm not even done. Okay. Back to your whole like stroking out like while committing adultery. There's sex stuff. In the Vatican? There's a lot of sex stuff. Oh my God. Obviously in the Vatican. Yeah. So it's not a party unless you include the sex stuff. I mean, that's what Diddy said. Right. Not only was he known to have multiple mistresses at the same time, but he was also accused of raping women. And in some cases, even more. Nones. Peter, this is awful. So bad. You asked. You wanted to know who the worst was. Yeah, but I didn't imagine. Like, I figured they're all John XII. Oh, man. Power does shit to people. What do you want me to say? And then, I think it is excellent totally apropos that he died in the glorious way of totally doing it and stroked out. Oh my god. He was an asshole. He was a bad pope. Were popes allowed to get married? No. He was an asshole. No, like this is, this is the whole point, it's completely and totally corrupt. Huh. So he's leading the church and really it's just the Tuscolani family it was just some rich people that wanted to lead the church and just put this guy in charge. It was terrible. That's awful. Okay. Well, thank you for that. Yeah. Okay. Um, I want to say it gets better from there. You asked for the worst one. Yeah. But, um, so we're going to move on to the Renaissance, but like it's, it's mildly, it's like sort of, it's sort of better. I don't even know what better is because it's still bad, okay. It's all it's all shades of badness. Are you ready? Okay, how are these the people who are leaving the church Amanda? I what do you want me to say? I lived back then I wouldn't be Catholic. I don't know what to tell you. I am not following these people. I am following our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Let's cut the crap, do you know the, do you remember the Borgias? Nope. Do you remember this? This was a Netflix series. You don't remember this? Oh my god, 2011? Nope. The Famous Borgias. Okay. The Billy est Borgias! I just did that. They're that unattractive? They're that unattractive? No, no, no, no. They're, uh, they're Angry? They're angry. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. We did that. Check off the box. The Billy is gorgeous. Oh, that was so, and I should get extra credit for alliteration. Yeah. Jinx. Okay. So side note, it was excellent to watch. Only three seasons. No excuses. Amanda, just start writing all the things down that I tell you to watch and I have an idea. Let's watch them during Christmas break. Okay. Okay. All right. Fine. Um, okay. So anyway. I don't even know if that's enough time. Just for the record. You're probably right. We're going to need a few Christmases. We'll let the record show. So the Borgias basically turned the papacy into their own personal Game of Thrones. The papacy? The papacy. Okay. Yeah. The papacy is the whole, like, concept of the Pope and the tradition of, electing the Pope, picking the Pope. The Pope's reign is called the papacy. Got it. Like, when you're the President of the United States, right? This is the papacy. Okay. Yes. So, Pope Francis is in his papacy.. So, basically, the board just turned the papacy into their own personal Game of Thrones. But, like, 2. 0 version of Pope John, right? But like less rapey stuff, more illegitimate kids this dude had seven kids when he was the Pope. Yeah, but how many mamas At least two mamas? They know okay. So like he was all over the place planting the seed. Okay, and then Simon II, right? What is Simon II Simon II is when you basically purchase votes to gain the papacy So you buy them So it's like a bribe. Yeah. Absolutely. It's totally and completely a bribe. Yeah. Okay. So Rodrigo Borgia ended up becoming Pope Alexander VI, who I would argue is the second worst pope ever. Um, basically bribed papacy in 1492. Sailing the ocean blue. Oh my God. I love you. Way to bring it back to the other podcast. Job well done. Um, So anyway, yeah, he totally bribes his way to the top and then subsequently decides he wants to be a dad. So he made seven babies with two different women that we know about at least and then used all his Pope power to make His family rich so nobody would like mess with them, which is a total shit show So here we are like maybe a little bit better than Pope John the 12th because like maybe he wasn't raping people But like everything else if we fast forward to today, does it get better? So, well, yeah, that's gonna, yeah, you'll see. I don't want to say it gets better, it gets different. We'll go with it gets different, okay? Let's be real. There's still a debate on how much air quotes, you can't see me, listeners. Inspiration is actually going on here. Uh, cause there's a bunch of power dynamics behind the scenes. It's still happening today. Totally. Like, just with like our most current pope. Pope Francis? Seriously? Oh, yeah. Totally. Like, not the baby part or like the rapey part. I just mean like the posturing part. Like the whole political part. Oh, like buying votes? Yeah, like posturing for votes. I want to be careful. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Let me be clear. Like, No funny business here like with parties or sex stuff or anything just like money and politics So do you remember in 2013 when Pope Francis was picked like he was seen as like the air quote compromise candidate. Between the conservatives and the reformers. And the only reason they chose Francis in the first place, besides the fact that, in my opinion, he's a humble Jesuit badass from RG, let's go, even though he's more progressive, they knew he would walk the line that needed to be walked sort of between tradition and And change. And here we are 10 years later and he's totally done that, uh, exceptionally well, in my opinion, I may add. So what did he do that would spin so exceptional since becoming the Pope? Well, first of all, he's from Argentina, so he doesn't need to do anything else because my wife was from Argentina. LGBTQ plus people, right? Like he's been way more open to that whole concept, which some traditionalists in the church freak out over. I totally understand that, but he has criticized the laws that criminalize homosexuality and, uh, he has been Advocating the churches for everybody so that's sort of like a big move there, right? And it's much more welcoming and Catholic churches having a bit of an issue there for sure for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you're not there identity Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, but I'd say good stuff because remember we're reformers what is the Catholic church going to do after Pope Francis? It sounds like it's going to be a should show if it's just this power struggle back and forth. I say, good question. I don't really, I don't really know. I'll tell you this, one way or the other, I think they're going to follow the same damn process they've followed for the last 900 years. Because that is now, set in stone. The whole conclave concept. Like, that's how they're going to roll. Okay? Really long time. Yeah, I know, but it is kind of cool. Like, when you really think about it, it's just, they've got to get better at it. But I would argue the next papal election like whenever that is is gonna be like really really important. Why? Cuz like you said look at all the shit the church is dealing with today Like let's be real the Pope has like real serious influence still like not just over Catholics But still over global politics It matters folks are like leaders of leaders of nations still Want to communicate with the Pope and influence the Pope and, and get their agendas through the Catholic. It's, it's a lot of stuff and they're still dealing with the sex abuse stuff in the church. The whole lack of transparency with all their spending and where all their money's going. Uh, not to mention like in general, like Catholic declining membership overall. So in one terrible podcaster's humble opinion, the papacy is in trouble and at a giant crossroads. Like a big one, Hollywood and vine crossroads, like big. Yeah. And I bet like when the next conclave happens, there's gonna be a ton of pressure on the Cardinals I can't even imagine, but also does the Pope have to be a Cardinal before he can be elected Pope? Oh, don't steal my fun fact thunder. Like it's, it's coming. We're going to answer that question. We're going to get to that. Right. I just think when they pick this next dude, like of course they need someone who's spiritual and morally appropriate. I guess that goes without saying like par for the course, but like way more important. I think it's someone who's going to take ownership and lead the church like not sit on the fence anymore Like not be this cream of wheat candidate they got to make a decision one way or the other it's gonna be big It's gonna be huge. But also I think that's a perfect segue because I'm gonna change the subject what are we changing? Okay But the moment we've all been waiting for The movie Conclave! Conclave! Let's go! Enough of history. Who the hell wants to talk about history anyway, Amanda? I mean, I think we have to know the history, right? To be able to understand the beauty of Conclave? Eh, maybe. Maybe people just wanted to hear us talk about Conclave. Maybe we could just be movie critics. Okay, fine. Then why don't you go ahead and give us some details and be as movie critic y as you would like but is it accurate? Is it worth watching? You know me and movies. I fall asleep, so I don't know. Yeah, you fall asleep. I'm bad at deciding if they're good movies. Like We're the two most terrible people when it comes to movie critics. Okay. I guess I'm the one who saw it. So I don't want to spoil it. How can you spoil it? A Pope dies. They pick a new Pope. There's drama and scandal. The end. Oh my God. Not even close. Like, first of all, crazy twist ending, like you would never expect total Hollywood. The apocalypse happened, huh? This is, this is big. This is big, this is a big twist. I'm not gonna lie. This is good, I'm kind of intrigued. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes, you gotta go. So aside from the ending, Did they get the whole process right? Were they all flocked in to the Oh, they were flocked. To the Vatican. Hey, they weren't flocking around, okay? They were, They were a bunch of bilious cardinals that got in a room and with that definition, I mean, ugly to look at. I'd say in some ways I got the whole thing, right. Like with the process and some ways like, no. The whole secret of stuff, like the gestures and all the behind the scenes I'm doing the air quotes again, jockeying for positions. Um, those are all really part of history. And it's obvious, like, the writers and directors or whoever, they did their homework. And, like the whole process, the actual voting takes place in rounds, just like in the movie. The ballots are burned after each vote. Black smoke for no pope, white smoke for new pope. Oh, that's how they make the smoke. That's cool. Totally. Um, I have a fun fact about that later. And at the beginning, I thought they did an incredible job like locking them in and capturing the sense of isolation that like I know all the Cardinals would feel like I'm no Cardinal but oh crap, the music, the score, of course you'd pick up on the score. No, it was all, no, because my son went with me to watch, and like the first thing we picked up on in the first 10 minutes we were like, oh my god, so this thing like musically, Is like a horror movie like it's that good the way they make it sound the score is remarkable had me on the edge of the seat and the way were like closing the windows they were showing the birds outside then they were like doing the sweep of the like you know for all the devices then it would like show more stuff outside all the noises were so crisp and it was like you knew they were going into isolation it was insane job well done there okay so then like they take some poetic license from there, like in other places, like where like, with the Cardinals. Like, with their emotional turmoil, or with their actual person? Like, the way they wrote them in. Each one of their characters. Like, the backstory. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All that. Bingo. Nailed it. Thank you very much. So, it's, like, so Hollywood. It's so blown up. All the scandals. But that's what makes it juicy. I know. And I guess, in real life, they're not that big, I mean. I've never, like, seen a conclave or anything. But I would imagine, With the shit that like happened in the movie like I would think in real life if that was really going on that would Have leaked out so I don't know if it's real but I've never I don't know I know you don't want To spoil anything, but you gotta give me like a little little piece of the juice Okay Simon II the whole bribing thing like say they go big with that That's like a whole storyline, right? But then there's like other big things like that like big big Like they have affairs with each other No, not that bad, but, yes. Affairs happen. Yes. Okay. And then we're going to stop there. Like, I'm not doing anything else. Okay. And so, could that really be true? Of course it could be true. Like, I don't know. But look, here's the deal, the hard thing is, you don't even know, what's real and what's not real, because when you stratify, like, any group of people, it doesn't matter, like, I'm sure most of the cardinals are really awesome religious people, just trying to do the right thing. And then there's like, a few dummies that muck it up for everyone else. So I'm sure that's true, in every case. With a bunch of groups of different people, right? It's like one bad apple spoils the bunch. Yeah, right. So I think that's the same thing that goes on. I don't know, but it probably doesn't help that they all have to be celibate. But anyway. But they weren't. Or aren't. Well, right. Apparently. Okay. You know what I think? Maybe we should allow porn in the Sistine Chapel then. Maybe that would solve the problems. Alright. Whatever. Okay, listen. Who are we kidding? Who would want to watch a two hour movie of just Cardinals sitting around and breathing anyway? Nobody. I know, that's why you need the juice. Right, you do need the juice. So good on you for bringing in the juice. But actually, sort of fun fact about the movie. I actually even picked up on the breathing in the movie. Speaking of breathing. Super effective. Yes. No, no, no. It was so tense. And so Ralph Fiennes, like the greatest actor of all time But every time there was like a tense scene, like all the music went off. It was not zero. Like nothing. It was so well done. The tenseness, it was so good. I mean the movie nailed the mood, but like skips all the tedious parts. So my opinion, Amanda eight outta 10. 8 out of 10. 8 out of 10. That's a high rating. Oh, yeah. Oh, no, no. It's worth going to see. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Yeah. Well, then, let's go see it. Let's go. I'll rewatch it with you. All right, and I'll just every time something so I'll say watch this part You know how people do that in the movie theaters? Shh. Hey watch this part, right? Like I wasn't watching the best part I won't ask questions because you're going over all this stuff right now. So you know everything you already be ready to go so then does the movie spend any time sort of inferring where the church is headed like what our next Pope should be like Or if there's even gonna be a next Pope Okay. Like, but again, I don't want to spoil but let me say yeah, you can infer some things from the ending. Like, I think it ended the way it did because of Hollywood. I don't think anyone was making a political or religious statement, but I could be wrong. That was just my take. But if they were really wanting to make a statement about whether or not like the new Pope will focus more on like reform or conservatism or something like that, no, they missed it. But there was definitely a twist but I don't think it, they meant like, that's where the church is headed. No, no, no, no, no, no. So they really missed the fact that the church is at a crossroads. Yes, I would say yes. They did. They, they added something like a Cliffhangery thing where it was like, maybe that's what you want to think, but like, they didn't pick a plate. They didn't pick a like, this is where we're going. No, no way. Is there gonna be a conclave too? They missed that. Oh, I don't know. Maybe we'll see if it wins the Academy Award since it's a Oh, that's true. Since it's, that's true. Oscar worthy. Oscar worthy, yeah. But then whoever they do elect next. Yeah. They're going to have to deal with the pressure of more transparency or accountability, especially after everything the church is currently going through. And let's hope they pick a woman because she would do better. Could that even happen? Is that allowed? So, no, not unless there's a reformer who gets elected that then decides women can and then subsequently later we have them. So, as of right now, no. Hell no. Alright, so if we, take me back real quick to the history lesson. Okay, what? Because I'm having fun relearning all of this stuff, or just learning I should say, all of this stuff. Relearning, learning, well I'm sure you learned it somewhere. Whatever, it's all the same. Right, yeah, yeah. Um, but I think we should do a quick and dirty of some of the most polarizing popes we've ever had. Ooh, you want to add a little drama. It's mostly, it's mostly, yeah, it's all the sauciness that I like, right? Right. Um, but good or bad, doesn't matter. But, but just the ones who had the most influence, maybe one way or another on the church. Cause there's like, what, 250 of them. And I don't know if I can. We're not going to study all of them right now. No, we're not. Because if we did that, we'd have to change the name of the podcast to V. S. instead of S. O. S. V. S.? V. S., yeah. Very sophisticated. Oh. Instead of sort of sophisticated. Since we're only doing SOS, I did a little googling. I found a good mix of 10 popes or so that span from like a few hundred years after Jesus all the way up to like now. And I'll go quick and I'll explain let's say like again, air quotes, the major point about each guy. All right. Let's go. Okay. Okay. Pope Leo the first. 448. One more question. Yeah. Do they get new names when they become? They do totally pick a name. Yeah, they pick a name They pick a name. They get to pick their own. They pick their own name. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like Pope Francis his name was Jorge Mario Bergoglio and then he picked Francis, right? Alright, so Pope Leo I, 440, also known as Leo the Great, even though he didn't pick that name. He picked Leo. Okay, super important because back in the day he convinced Attila the Hun, THE Attila the Hun, not to attack the Roman Empire. Seriously? Totally. So he basically set the stage for Popes to have political influence. That, that's Pope Leo. That's crazy. Right, I know. Okay. Who knew? I did not. Well, now you know. I do. The more you know. Okay, then Pope John, we already talked about him in 953, we're gonna skip him. Thank God. He just needs to be done. Good old Johnny XII. The rapist. Okay. Uh. Number three, we have Pope Gregory VII, that was 1073, so we're still way back in Middle Ages. He was known for cleaning house, like, after all the corruption, after Pope John, and subsequently some other, ones after him, and reasserted, like, major papal influence over monarchs in Europe. Like, good guy, Pope Gregory VII, like, took it on the chin, clean, he drained the swamp. Oh. He was a swamp drainer, all right? We're not getting political. Okay, fine. Okay, also Middle Ages, Pope Urban II. So that was in 1088. Basically started the Crusades. Was that a good or bad thing? Um, depends what side you're on. Okay, but like The Crusades, right? Overall, history generally views them negatively, I guess, because, like, we were trying to spread Catholicism all over the place by killing a bunch of people, for hundreds of years. Big shit. So, urban matters, just because he started the Crusades. Okay? He started killing people. Got it. He did. Okay, then, uh, Pope Innocent III in 1198, so we're almost at 1200. Maybe the most powerful Pope ever. Total legend. Okay. Basically ran all of Europe and excommunicated King John of England for being bilious. Come on. He was a total a hole basically proving to the world he was in charge of everything. So Pope innocent, most powerful Pope ever. Then of course we have Alexander the sixth, AKA Rodrigo Borgia. We already talked about him could be tied with Pope. John is the most corrupt Pope ever. Cause he bribed everyone. So he could be Pope. Church low point. Totally. That was him. Okay, then Pope Leo X, now we're all the way up to 1500, like 1513, aka Giovanni de Medici. That was his real name, Giovanni de Medici, another total rich mofo who made a shit ton of money in the banking industry, believe it or not, before he became Pope. Then cause he like stuck his head in the sand and never really reformed anything, he single handedly paved the way for Martin Luther and the whole Protestant Reformation thing. And they're like total split from Rome. So, thank you, Pope Leo, for like, literally starting Protestantism without even knowing because you were a douchebag. Um, then Pope, I, I, I can't, I can't, can I really call Popes douchebags? I don't know if you can. Okay, I take that back. I don't want to get smited. Okay, then we have Pope Pius IX, 1846. We're getting more serious. We're getting closer. The longest serving Pope ever, who was totally famous for presiding over the first Vatican Council in 1870, which is a big deal because that was the first time they decided on this thing called papal infallibility. Like infallible? Infallible, infallible. Like you're never wrong infallible? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like he decided the pope is incapable of error when pronouncing truths when it comes to faith and morals. That's a bold move. Totally bold move. Totally agree. But remember, dude, if we're selecting the popes, like, the right way in the first place, the whole idea here is that he's supposed to be selected by God. But he's not. But he's supposed to be. Leave me alone. If they're doing this right, and this is all intervention of the Holy Spirit, and there's no corruption or anything, then technically speaking, papal infallibility should be a thing. You're just adding the whole corrupt component to it that we can't get away from. I totally understand. But I'm all for papal infallibility. Okay. Then you have Pope John the 23rd 1958 we're getting closer to our time our second Vatican Council guy, which totally updated the church Thank God literally Finally letting mass be celebrated in whatever language people used rather than Latin which totally helped so people didn't think Catholics were total batshit crazy That's all it took Seriously, you're hilarious. Okay, Amanda, up until 1965, mass had to be said in Latin. It was a dying breed. He, okay, but now why he needed, is he a reformer? He was John the 23rd a reformer. Yes. He was a badass reformer. Let's go John the 23rd and then finally. We got good old Pope John Paul the second 1978. Oh, I know that one. Yeah, totally, right? Yeah, more recently. Okay, yeah. So, modern day game changer. First off, did you know he was the first non Italian Pope in over 400 years? That's crazy. Italians are the juggernaut. Totally the juggernaut, right? So, I was doing all this research, and I didn't even know until, I finished this episode, where I was like, wait, hold on, Italian Pope, Italian Pope, Italian Pope, Italian Pope. I'm like, no wonder this all, this whole thing's batshit crazy corrupt, because the Vatican's in Italy, even though it's a little country, like, surrounded, but, you know, obviously, it's Super tiny. Right there in Rome. Right, anyway, um, Pope John Paul's claim to fame was helping the eventual fall of Communism in Eastern Europe in the early 1990s. So another total badass for sure. Who doesn't love that pope? I think he's the greatest. Alright, that's ten. That's my most influential popes, each from kind of a different era, a bunch of different shit going on, but whether they're reformers or conniving a holes, can't deny they all shaped the church, Amanda. One way or the other. I mean, indeed they did. But Here's hoping from here on out, we have more good ones than bad ones, maybe? Amen to that, sister. Either way, you're not going to get out of fun facts this episode. I know you gave one earlier, but I hope you got more. Fun fact time! You know me, dude. I'm ready. Let's go. Alright, um, fun fact one. Most people already know about the black and white smoke thing, right? Yep, you told us. Votes, fire, black and white smoke. Beautiful. Okay, so originally wet straw or tar was added for black smoke, and dry straw was added for white smoke. So I looked it up, and I guess they don't do that anymore. Now they use chemicals instead. Potassium perchlorate for white, and anthracene for black. Is it more environmentally friendly? Right? Like, I don't think so. That's why they change it. Uh, so the old ways were too unreliable. People were all confused when all this gray smoke would come out. And they were like, uh, shit, I don't know. Do we have a new Pope? Do we not have a new Pope? Like we need chemicals to fix this. It's like Groundhog Day. Did it come up? Do you not? Are you not? I don't know. Yeah. Whatever. So then why don't they just like raise a flag or something instead of setting smoke signals? It seems like it'd be way easier. Uh, I don't know. By the way, that's an excellent idea and I have no idea why they don't just do that. And I bet it's because they just, they want to keep this old tradition. Yeah. Right. Right. Right. Okay. Can I move on? Yep. Um, okay. Number two. Fun fact. So in the early days, conclaves could go on for years. Literally the longest conclave in history was the election of Pope Gregory the 10th in 1271, which took, are you ready for this? Ready. Three years. No way. Three years. Totally. What? What did they do? They were just popeless for three years and they all just stayed in the Vatican and there was no head of church or You just said popeless. That's awesome. We need to TM popeless. I don't even think that's a thing. I love that. Okay, that's ours. Popeless. Talk to my lawyers. Okay, so apparently, I don't know, I guess technically I shouldn't call it the longest conclave in history, right? Because one, we don't have all the records of how long all that took, like in the early days, right? and two, because of this problem, they actually developed the whole idea of the conclave in the first place. Up until then, it wasn't even called a conclave. It was just a bunch of cardinals hanging out and chilling. So after like two years or so, check this, the local magistrate, whoever that was, locked the cardinals in a building with the roof removed, and they were fed only bread and water to speed things up. And that's how the modern conclave was officially established. That's barbaric. You gotta do what you gotta do. Hardcore, man. Yeah. So, so technically, that wasn't the longest conclave. That was the longest time it took before they started the conclave. Got it? Yeah, they gotta rush the process. That was a long fun fact. Okay. Number three. The cardinals fill out ballots by writing a code name or pseudonym on it, not their actual names. And they do this so everything stays secret, right, because they have to be super secret. They write their name on the chosen candidate on a slip of paper, fold it twice, then carry it up to the altar while chanting a prayer, and then for divine guidance. You will see that in the movie. They nailed it. And super fun fact, each cardinal also has to place a second, air quotes, authentication mark on their ballot somewhere that can be used later in case of like a dispute or a tie. So old school. It is totally. But that's what people like about it, I guess. So like, if something comes up, they're like, Oh, no, that was my vote because that's my mark that I put on there. Right. So like, they totally have a way of checking. Number four. Okay. So we know you have to be under 80 years old to vote. And by the way, the distinction of oldest Cardinal to ever vote was given to this guy named Cardinal Walter Casper, who was only like three days away from his 80th birthday when they elected Pope Francis in 2013. Shout out to, uh, Walter Casper. However, what you may not know, is that any cardinal over the age of 80 can still participate in discussions. A. K. A. bride people. Uh, wow, yes. During the conclave, even though they can't vote, so they just stand in the corner and they're like, hey, vote for this guy. Hey dude, vote for that guy. Use their influence. Right. They're influencers. All right. Number five. This one might be the most surprising Uh, we were talking earlier about this one. I remember when you asked about um, can anybody technically be a pope? Yes Okay, so theoretically any baptized male catholic can be elected pope What you don't have to be a cardinal or even a priest so you could be a pope? I could be a just circumcised baptized catholic, baby. Let's go. Stop it. Right? That's it. I know now, you know, i'm circumcised Okay. Anyway, I think it would be pretty hard to be recognized and voted for when you think about it because who's knows me like nobody know like oh, yeah, we're voting for that guy. It's kind of dumb Well, I mean, they wouldn't vote for an American. Yeah, right. Well, let's be honest, right? Of course they wouldn't but my point is like they're not gonna vote for anybody who's not a cardinal even though theoretically you could Does that make sense Pope Francis a cardinal Pope Francis was totally a cardinal? Yeah, the last non cardinal Pope was Pope Urban the sixth elected in 1378 He was just a priest not a cardinal, Number six, the new Pope gets a new wardrobe, like, really fast. So, once a new Pope is chosen, the papal tailor, Gammarelli, cause they have a papal tailor. Like, that's the actual name of the company, Gammarelli. Like, has all the pre made cassocks, like the things they wear. Sorry, what? Cassocks. Like, what? That's a cat sock. A cat, it's like the big long robe they wear. Oh. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The cat sock. That is kind of a weird one. I never thought about that. It's like a sock. Yeah. For your body. I wasn't thinking that, but yeah. Okay. A cat sock. Okay, so they have like all the different sizes ready. Like, they have like ten different sizes just in case, like, cause they don't know who it's gonna be. Right? Fat guys, short guys, little people, whatever it is. You know what I mean? They got it all ready, okay? Um, right in the Sistine Chapel. So after the decision's made, they suit up the new pope in like, like, one minute. They like, they're done. He's a pope. So as fast as Taylor Swift? Oh, faster than Taylor Swift, dude. They're not messing around. They're ready to go. He's got to get outside. He's got to like, you know? Oh, it like happens right away? Yes! Like, hey, what's up dudes? Yeah, it's a whole like, garment change. Alright, number seven. Okay, so secrecy is so paramount, apparently, that before the Conclave begins, physical barriers and panels over the doors and windows are added to prevent unauthorized entry, and the movie Conclave nails it, like I told you earlier. Okay, security experts install electronic jammers and signal blocking devices to cut off any wireless or electronic signals from entering or leaving the Sistine Chapel. Surveillance is also set up outside the chapel to monitor any attempted breaches. And finally, the chapel and surrounding areas are swept for bugs, hidden cameras, any recording devices before the conclave begins. All this is to ensure that all the conversations and activities remain completely confidential in case of bribes. But it happens. It does. So it can happen inside. Exactly. You nailed it. So it happens inside. Nobody knows. Let's go. Oh my God, I'm going to hell. Sorry. Um, all right. Last but not least, fun fact eight. The first official words from a newly elected pope come when the senior deacon cardinal announces Habemus papum. which means we have a pope right there from the balcony of St. Peter's Basilica. Until that moment, the identity of the new pope is kept secret from the public. Only after the announcement does the pope give his first blessing. That's all I got. Fun facts. All my little fun facty gems right out of the conclave. The whole process. How we pick our Pope. Done, done. How'd I do? Great. As always. I mean, the fun facts are always, but, um, so can I close or you got anything else? No, no, no. Close. I'm bored of myself. Go for it. I mean, it was totally fascinating and it's something that I absolutely knew nothing about. Um, a little blend of some ancient tradition, secret ballad, a lot of secret ballots and divine intervention. I'm hoping for divine intervention. I guess we could be praying for we can't that's what we're gonna do right right, but it's all rolled together with some murders Oh, yeah. Thanks for bringing that back around. Yeah. Wow. Well, that's the fascinating part, right? Okay, yeah. Murderers, rapists, ancient tradition, secret I love what you just did there. Yeah, yeah, that was good. Before you close out, you want to give me really short takeaways that we can memorize, like flashcards, so we can be smart and stuff Oh, my God. Let's do this. I don't know if we're going to be smart, we're certainly going to be engaging and interesting. That is for sure after this, right? It's true. And we've seen little tidbits, right? You just gotta feel like the smartest person in the room, right? That's our job. Let's go. Okay, so first, obviously, watch Conclave. It's awesome, totally worth it. And if you like it, um, watch The Two Popes. So that one came out in 2019 with Anthony Hopkins. Personally, I think it was even better. Like, way more drama. Isn't Anthony Hopkins, like, really horror ish? No, this, no, this is excellent. Like he, he plays Pope Benedict. Like this is so well done. Um, it's a much more intimate and it's about the transition between Benedict to Pope Francis. Um, so it's a lot slower and a lot more, um, I don't want to say dramatic. What's the word I'm looking for? Like they just go so deep into character development. It is so excellent. Conclave is just dramatic, like it's a flair for the dramatic and it's more Hollywood. So you can start with Conclave. And then if you care enough about the subject matter, The two popes was like excellent. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Okay. Um, and then after that, there's not much else to do except remember like to watch the next conclave when it happens. And, remember these few details to seem sort of sophisticated. Uh, one, the office of the pope originated with St. Peter, whom Catholics consider the first pope based on Jesus entrusting him with the keys of heaven. By the Middle Ages, the conclave was formalized to safeguard against external pressures and tradition aimed at keeping the process within the church since basically the 11th century. Number two, the College of Cardinals composed of senior bishops and Vatican officials under the age of 80, is responsible for electing the new Pope. The Cardinals are literally locked in the Sistine Chapel during the conclave, isolated from the outside world until they reach a decision ensuring the secrecy and sanctity of the process, they vote by a secret ballot and the public is alerted via smoke signals number three. While cardinals are meant to be guided by the Holy Spirit, political alliances and factions within the conclave historically have influenced the outcome. Sometimes in a not so great way. So people, if we're going to do anything, we need to pray for our cardinals And finally, the conclave was initially dominated by Italian cardinals. But lately, as we've gotten a little more modern. Representation has diversified popes outside of italy like pope john paul ii from poland pope francis Of course from argentina have signaled a move towards a global church perspective and today the college of cardinals reflects this diversity Continuing to add new members from around the world in order to build a more robust and diverse church here on earth That's all I got. Well, there you have it, dear listeners. The Vatican's version of Divine Drafting. Wait, wait, wait. Time out. They're only picking one pope. It's not like a whole draft. They're not like drafting a quarterback and Like a running back there. Okay, so it's okay, but I guess you're right. They're drafting. Okay, divine draft a go my bad Yo, I mean, it's the origin story of how they pick a pope, right? After rounds of secret votes dramatic pauses and a few centuries of scandals We're left with the new Pope who's hopefully ready to steer the world's largest religious ship without hitting any political icebergs Let's hope so We'd like to think we've shared just enough information to make you either a flaming nuisance or a little more sophisticated to your fellow humans. Mm, sort of. And if you enjoyed this episode and found it particularly interesting I found it interesting, Amanda. This was one of my favorite episodes, actually. I liked this one. Well, it was a good one. Because I got to watch a movie to do I was doing You gotta do research. My research was watching a movie. It was excellent. Okay, whatever. Tell our subscribers to do something now. Well, listeners, don't forget to subscribe. Okay. Okay. Good point. Leave a review and share with your peeps. And just remember, next time you see that whole white smoke rising, you're not just witnessing tradition. You're watching history and maybe a little divine lobbying unfolding before your very eyes. Who knew God's will came with such a flair for suspense. Until next time, stay curious and stay inspired.
